Posts by Liberty

86

Silliest thing that Witnesses told you was wrong?

by gilwarrior in

there are two things.

in the early and mid 80s there were witnesses saying that the cartoon characters the smurfs were not acceptable for witnesses.

i had two smurf cartoon books and my mother made me throw them away.

Liberty

I too heard the stupid JW line about John Denver playing the National Anthem at his concerts and then publicly embarrassing JWs and forcing them to leave when they wouldn't salute the flag. I was a huge John Denver fan and this really disturbed me. Years later I finally got to go to one of his last concerts, the Wildlife Tour, before he died. I'm so glad I got to go since there will be no more. In any case, he NEVER played the National Anthem, had no flag salute, nor made anybody leave.

This is obviously just gossip encouraged by the Society since so many JWs were attracted to JD's nature themed music and down home approach. They couldn't stand to have you give attention to anyone but themselves. Common sense made me suspect that this story was bogus anyway, considering the anti-war/US government sentiments of the early 1970's, a saavy entertainer like JD would not have risked angering the eco-friendly/hippie fan base with such patriotic excess. Especially so since he started as a folk singer in the 1960's where making people salute the flag would have been very uncool in the circles he ran in. This is just one more of many idiotic JW myths.

Unclepenn1 list how JC transformed the world

by Liberty in

please elaborate your evidence from our previous discussion about how jesus christ's rising from the grave has transformed the world beyond that of the impact of other religious/philisophical leaders such as mohamed, lao tsu, and the buddha.

you mentioned that this event was responsible for various general reforms and advances in medicine and society for examples, however, i am only aware of the slow down in progress due to the repression of science by the early christian church.

i am also aware of the brutality of bible sanctioned punishments imposed on generations of innocent victims for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, and of the bible's acceptance of slavery as a normal social condition.

Liberty

Hi Unclepenn1,

Please elaborate your evidence from our previous discussion about how Jesus Christ's rising from the grave has transformed the World beyond that of the impact of other religious/philisophical leaders such as Mohamed, Lao Tsu, and the Buddha. You mentioned that this event was responsible for various general reforms and advances in medicine and society for examples, however, I am only aware of the slow down in progress due to the repression of science by the early Christian Church. I am also aware of the brutality of Bible sanctioned punishments imposed on generations of innocent victims for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, and of the Bible's acceptance of slavery as a normal social condition. I am interested in your evidence if my own research has misled me. I am a skeptic so any overturning of accepted ideas is welcome IF the evidence warrents such a change. You said you would welcome the chance to present such evidence so my curiosity is peeked.

Thanks,

Liberty

96

ONLY A MATTER OF TIME

by You Know in

world renown conservative investor, warren buffet, told an audience that a nuclear attack upon the united states was a certainty.

such an attack would of course result in swift and terrible retaliation and the likey annihilation of most of the arab world and then some.

whether or not that proves to be the exact scenario that's played out, it must be admitted that the climate for the sudden outbreak of a nuclear storm has never been so favorable.

Liberty

Good to hear from you again You Know,

Those of us who disbelieve the World Wide Flood do so because there is no evidence for such an event. In fact, all evidence, Geological, Biological, Anthropological, and Archeological points to the reality that a World Wide Flood could NOT have happened ever in the past, let alone just a few thousand years ago as the Biblical time lines require. This does not even get into the logical or common sense reasons why such an event is pure fiction. Unfortunately, you will not examine the evidence objectively so you are left believing in things that never happened and things which never will happen.

You made a very true statement however, that, "a person's disbelief doesn't determine reality". How true and the same could be said of someone's beliefs. So there is hope for you yet. What you or I believe is of little importance to reality's outcome. What really matters in reality are the facts. Your conjectures about the future are clouded by your belief in a religious philosophy which facts have proven over and over again to be unreliable. Anyone can predict the possibility of an atomic attack since such weapons do exist but we are just as likely to be hit by a bolide (astroid) or enter another ice age. None of these possible catastrophies means that God is behind them however, because they have all happened before and yet they did not usher in Armegeddon.

Such predictions are of only limited use since there is little we can do about them as our belief or disbelief in God has never had an effect on these deadly events in the past and therefore probably won't in the future either. Christians died in the blast at Hiroshima just like pagans. If you can provide some evidence which can change the outcomes of future events or prove that God will protect us then I'm ready to listen but so far all we've gotten are vague threats and a thousand contradicting paths to God's favor. If I am ever judged before God's throne I will stand as an honest disbeliever and He will do with me whatever He pleases anyway whether I believed in wild predictions or not. I can see no logical advantage in your Doomsaying philosophy.

52

WANTING to Believe in God

by dobby in

jw
friends

has anyone had this experience?.

after letting go of my beliefs as a jw, i felt the only alternative was to be atheist.

or maybe it is just logical to there is no god when i am only listening to my mind and not my heart.

Liberty

Hi UnclePenn,

Sorry, but as far as I can see humanity was not changed by this event 2000 years ago any more than it was by works of Mohamed, Joseph Smith, Loa Tzu, Confusious, or the Buddha. Human beings who are trained under Christianity have proven over & over again that they are just as capable of the same brutality as any other religion or philosophy. Jesus has never returned in 2000 years as he promised. His apostles all grew old and died waiting for his promised return in their lifetimes. You are a Christian so you block out these facts and this is understandable. I'm sure you are a nice and well intentioned person but you have not presented any evidence for your claims. How can I be expected to have blind faith in these things when all the evidence around me says it is untrue?

You are a Christian because you were born into a Christian culture not because you freely chose it as otherwise Christianity would be equally chosen by people around the world instead of by culture and region. The same goes for Islam. We are taught to believe something is true by our culture and can only test this belief against the objective evidence we see in the world. Christianity fails every test. Does God really pick His believers based upon race and culture? This would be very unfair ,yet, this is what the evidence says if He were real. I cannot reconcile such an obvious flaw.

52

WANTING to Believe in God

by dobby in

jw
friends

has anyone had this experience?.

after letting go of my beliefs as a jw, i felt the only alternative was to be atheist.

or maybe it is just logical to there is no god when i am only listening to my mind and not my heart.

Liberty

Hi Dobby,

My experience after leaving the Watchtower was different. I retained my belief in God for years while steadily becoming a more "liberal" Christian as I learned more and modified my original JW Fundi beliefs into ever more moderate ones. One of the main reasons I left in the first place was the Society's anti-science stance and Bible literalism which I knew could not be reconciled with the physical evidence. As I studied more on my own, applied some common sense, and then took more University courses I began to see that even maintaining a belief in any part of the Bible was just not possible for me. It became clear that the Bible was not inspired at all even in a symbolic sense so I rejected it as a communication to humanity from God. Soon I realized that if God had not bothered to communicate with His creation then He, at best remains neutral to our plight, or, in all probability, was just a figment of our own imaginations.

I sleep better not worrying about what God thinks of me or wondering how He can tolerate all the horror and suffering in the world by doing nothing to help. I now like my Universe impersonal and neutral. There is no one to praise or blame and things are just as they appear. We have science and logic to guide us and physical evidence to help solve our problems and mysteries. If there is a God I do not fear His judgements because I have been intellectually honest in not seeing His presence. He knows the poor evidence He has provided and only a crazy God would punish us for not believing. With or without God I am content that my continuing search for truth has been genuine and limited only by the flaws inherent to my being. So being an Atheist for me is not about revenge or bitterness directed at the Watchtower Society but rather it is the culmination of a long spiritual journey of self discovery.

17

"Life after Jehovah"

by butalbee in

ok, you're out of the cult, that's great, it's the best thing you ever did.

but i have a question for all the ex-jw's......now that you're out, do you still believe in god?

do you practice a different religion?

Liberty

Hi Lara,

It took me years to clear the brain washing but eventually reality shown through and I realized that there was no evidence of substance for a serious belief in the God of the Bible. This "holy" book is a confusing mess far too illogical, flawed, and unclear to be inspired by a super being of any kind let alone one capable of creating the whole Universe. If there ever was an intellegent source for the Cosmos it likes to remain unseen, unknown, unheard, and completely neutral because there is NO evidence for such a being. We are left to figure it all out on our own. All we have is each other and the observable evidence around us. This is enough I think.

We have made remarkable progress. We are not "fallen" creatures but self realizing evolving animals who see farther and farther each day making our own way through the Universe and getting better at it little by little. We may someday visit other star systems, harness clean unlimited energy, cure our ills, and perhaps even overcome death. The progress we have made in just the last two centuries is powerful evidence that even greater things are possible in the future. But for now, since we are like other animals, we must eventually die. We have no evidence for a continued consciousness after death so I am inclined to believe that this life is all there is.

Sinners are not punished after death as far as we know, and good folks get no rewards. On a Universal scale I'm not sure there is a way to measure good and evil. In my own life I have bruatally killed billions of organisms by choking them with poisons, burning them with fire and chemicals, freezing, boiling, beheading, crushing, etc. all done for my hunger, convienience, or pleasure. Am I evil? I'm not justifying that which we humans have deemed evil but am just pointing out that in bacteria court I'd been seen as a mass murderer of billions. The same goes for pig, chicken, cattle, insect, and tree court. In short, evil is not universally defined so how could it be judged and punished beyond the scale of our own civilization? Hell is our fantasy of revenge reserved for our own kind as sharks,lions, and wolves are usually exempted from Hell's punishments when they kill or maul us. If a person has no conscience then they are free to be "evil" as long as they are not stopped by the rest of us. Once again, it's up to us. Many sociopathic rapists, torturers, murderers have gotten away with their crimes scott free if we didn't catch them. We have no evidence that they are punished in an after life despite what we might wish. This is what we know. Maybe there are other beings and realms and even life after death but it's all speculation-Big Foot and UFOs-because we have no hard evidence for any of it. I choose to live my life by basing it upon logic, evidence, and scientific principles whenever possible. My emotions still win sometimes, I am also often irrational but I at least don't want a philosophy system based upon emotion and irrational fantasies. No offense, but Christianity seems to be based on irrationality rather than logic and evidence so it does not appeal to me any more.

23

Is life really better out of the org?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

it strikes me that as witnesses most can find many faults with the world and reasons why they want to be no part of it.. things are often exagerated or demonised in the witneses eyes.. does the same thing happen in reverse when you leave the org?.

do we blow things up out of proportion to how they really are?.

are we really that much happier as people than we were in the org?.

Liberty

Hi Sleepy,

I don't think I've ever blown my Watchtower experience out of proportion. There is no doubt in my mind that life is much better outside of the Society. The Watchtower Society is a thought control cult that puts high pressure on people to do things they normally wouldn't do. Who else but a dangerous cult would discourage young people from getting a good education and career, discourage couples from getting married and having children, punish people for having life saving surgery (blood transfusions/organ transplants), constantly tell its followers lies, cause people to cruelly shun friends and relatives for minor or pure fantasy infractions, control what adults may read watch say or do in private, or telling generations of people they will never grow old and die when (to their shock and amazment) they really do grow old and die anyway? This is just a short list of the control the Society has had over people's lives. Living this way is counter to a healthy life as it takes a toll on your mental as well as your physical well being.

Most normal people will be happier without this kind of pressure in their lives. Especially since it serves no real purpose because the foundation of the whole JW system is pure fantasy. Is the "End of the World" really imminent? Is Jehovah really directing the Watchtower Society through His active spirit? Did Jesus really start ruling "invisibly" in 1914? Does God really care if you perform oral sex with your spouse or if you need a blood transfusion? Does God really want you to sell magazines? A little common sense and research quickly shows that the whole JW philosophy is bogus through and through. Not living this lie is 100% better on even my worst day as a "worldly" person than in my life under the Watchtower's thumb.

18

How would you counter these common JW arguments?

by Leander in

jw
friends

as i mentioned before in previous posts i'm trying to prepare myself for an exit of the borg.

so what i've been doing over the last few days is thinking of ways to counter the questions that i know will be directed to me.

in particular how would you go about responding to the following questions?.

Liberty

Hi Leander,

If I were you I would attempt a quiet fading away rather than a direct confrontation. Why burn all your bridges if it is not necessary? I don't know your circumstances but most of the time, if you have not made an issue of your discoveries about the true nature of the Watchtower Cult with other JWs, you can get away with not attending without so much as a visit from the busy Elders. Even if they are extra zealous and ask to meet with you as long as you just answer "yes" to their question about the Society being Jehovah's spirit directed earthly organization they will be satisfied that you are not a threat but are just "spiritually weak". I think most of us agree that trying to reason with brain washed people will do neither yourself nor them any good. They will not discuss or think about what you are trying to tell them but will automatically go into full denial and shun mode. If you have a lot of family and friends among the JWs don't risk all the stress for the very small chance of waking someone up to reality. Most folks must gradually develop doubts on their own before they will consider listening to anti-JW facts and you will be more effective in reasoning with these people than hard core Elders who are programmed to shut off their ears and minds at the first sign of "apostacy" no matter how well you present the evidence before their kangaroo courts. If you don't have alot invested socially with the JWs then I'd say go for a full fledged exposure of this Cult as you leave on the off chance that someone might take your points to heart and save themselves from this waste of time known as the Watchtower Society. Ultimately, you know best.

Good Luck!

16

Which came first, man or woman?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

if men were created in the image of god , and women created for men , then why do all foetuses start off female?.

according to the bible eve was created out of adam.. well i can't speak for adam but the basic body structure of a human it seams starts off as female , men branching off at a certain point of developement due to man making hormones.it doen't get rid of our nipples though.. if men came first or are in some way superior in gods eyes then why the need to develope as a female first , shouldn't it be the other way round?.

so shouldn't have god made eve first?

Liberty

Hi Sleepy,

You are clearly seeing evidence which proves that the Bible does not scientifically explain the "creation" process. Evolution fits the evidence far better, as it is clear that sexual reproduction came way after other forms of reproduction which are still used by simpler life forms today (various asexual means). Sexual dimorphism (specialized sex difference) is a very late development and this is why male characteristics are secondary mutations of "female" forms, hence males with useless nipples. So yes, this proves the creation sequence described by the Bible or even its apocryphil additions are utter nonsense.

Even if men and women were created by God at the same time it does not explain why male body parts are mutated from female forms in the original developing fetus. An intellegent God would not inspire the bogus, fanciful, and flat untrue nonsense found in the Bible. The Bible is just another of many ancient myth books written by mere mortals who had a limited understanding of the natural world.

46

Proof of the "historical" Jesus...

by simwitness in

been wondering about this lately.... what proof (outside the bible, of course) do we have for the "historical jesus"?.

in my earlier days (post jw to "born again christian") i remember reading that the one thing that differentiates christianity vs. "all the others" was that we had secular historical proof that there was a man that was called jesus, who died on a cross and was resurrected.

now i am wondering just what that proof is/was?

Liberty

Hi Simwitness,

To me the question isn't really about whether the "real" Jesus existed or not but rather what was his "true" nature? The evidence for Jesus as the man/god described in the Bible is very poor. Besides much scholarly evidence which disputes the claims made for him by Christians, I find that common sense and logic are also against the concept of Jesus as a man/god with superhuman powers. For starters, nothing he predicted has been proven to have come true. Even his "prediction" of the punishment of Isreal by the Romans is suspect because the New Test. accounts of this could very well have been written after these events took place and then were retroactively credited to the long dead Jesus. The same goes for the "predictions" of his own capture and execution. Nothing else he predicted has come true at all! All of his promises to the Apostles remained unfulfilled in their lifetimes and continue to be unfulfilled 2000 years later.
Jesus also never bothered to predict the most important events of World history such as medical advances, atomic power, jet planes, space flight, and men walking on the Moon! If he couldn't see these immensely important things in mankind's future then his powers seem very limited indeed.

The concept that a loving God, who had even lived as a man, would require blind faith in such vague and/or unproven claims, events, and predictions which have little or no evidence to acompany them (which then take thousands of years to occur) in order that people may be saved from His deadly Judgements just strains the limits of credulity, fairness, and simple justice. The complex and convoluted nature of the Salvation plan imposed upon the Bible by its modern adherents just does not ring true for a logical and fair Super Being capable of creating the whole of the Universe. The Jesus stories sound too much like other mythical heroes born of the ancient past to be "true" in a modern sense. The Bible is not a book about an intellegent Super Being and His loving interactions with His beloved creation but rather is about petty tribal gods and the primitive tribesmen who try and make sense of their savage world over a long stretch of time as their religion evolved under the occupation of countless more powerful invaders who infused their own concepts and explainations into the mix. An all powerful Super Being behaving in a logical manner is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Nor are any scientific priciples evident in any explainations of how nature works, just the common myths prevailent in the Middle East at that time. If the Bible were inspired by a true Creator God it would be compatable with modern scientific observations and better still would have explainations which are revealed to be true as our knowledge increased over time, instead the exact opposit is true as Bible apologists are always scrambling to adjust their Biblical explainations to fit new scientific data.