i should clarify, i am new at posting, not new to the board.. i've been checking in for a short time now.
"spying", "lurking", whatever you would like to call it.
but i thought it was time to come out of the "first closet" i've been in for more than 20 years.
Glad you have decided to post MarchOn!
If you haven't already done so I highly recommend reading George Orwell's "1984" and Raymond Franz's "Crisis of Conscience". These books do wonders for clearing out the Watchtower debris and guilt from your mind. "1984" is especially interesting because it isn't even directly about the Watchtower Society but reflects its evil reality perfectly as an essay on totalitarianism and its impact on the individual. Enjoy and welcome.
has anyone ever read anything by this buddhist monk?
i am currently reading teachings on love, it is wonderful.
he starts out saying that you have to preserve your religious roots and he discusses the four immeasurable minds.
Greetings SaintSatan,
Love the name by the way. Yes, I am an Atheist. I'm a science nut so I applied the scientific method to the God problem and I have not yet found any compelling evidence to support belief in an invisible super-being who controls the Universe. This is especially true for the ethnocentric homocidal maniac God promoted by the Bible. Handing out death and destruction seems to be His answer to everything not to mention "inspiring" nonsense such as we find in most of the Bible.
Zen-style Buddhism is not concerned at all with God's existance much as it is not concerned with an after life. The Zen masters say, "we cannot know so why waste our time with it?". I like that. I am still compelled to waste my time arguing against the Biblical God because of my JW training in being obsessive and obnoxiuos. Some day I hope to make peace with my own "demons" but for now, I kind of enjoy working out my frustrations and obsessions.
has anyone ever read anything by this buddhist monk?
i am currently reading teachings on love, it is wonderful.
he starts out saying that you have to preserve your religious roots and he discusses the four immeasurable minds.
Hi Andi,
No real argument from me here. I too have gone to Southern Baptist churches after leaving the Watchtower(my girlfriend was a SB)and met many fine loving people there. I don't think Christianity can make you a bad/evil person if you are strong willed and happy with yourself. I have met many great loving people in and out of the Watchtower but I think that they were that way DESPITE their religion.
I believe most people are naturally cooperative and nice and this is based on meeting folks from all over the world and all kinds of religions and cultures, most people are kind and loving. Communism or any kind of government ism, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity can all work against our better natures twisting our animal survival instincts into hate when the belief system is elevated beyond its real importance. Do most JWs enjoy shunning, do most Germans like killing Americans and vice versa? I'd say no but most people who are conditioned to be cruel or murderous for "the greater good" will do these things if enough pressure is applied. I still harbor some self-hate and sectarianism from my training as a JW hence my strong anti-Christian comments. You will not see this kind of negative reference in the writings of Buddhist monks such as Hahn, such statements are mine alone as a Westerner observing Buddhism from my own perspective.
has anyone ever read anything by this buddhist monk?
i am currently reading teachings on love, it is wonderful.
he starts out saying that you have to preserve your religious roots and he discusses the four immeasurable minds.
Hi Wonderwoman77,
Christianity encourages self-hate through guilt and the false concept of original sin. This self-hate limits our potential to love others so Buddhism teaches that we must love ourselves first. Christians go apesh*t when confronted with this concept because self-love is considered selfish and evil but in reality the Buddhist concept makes more sense because how can we love and forgive others when we can't even learn to love and forgive ourselves? Self-hate leads to lashing out at others. Have you ever noticed how judgemental and sectarian most fundi-Christians are? Some of this is human/animal nature but such negative qualities are encouraged by the ethnocentric views of the Bible.
Hahn is a good writer and represents the southern school of Buddhism, Hinheyana(not sure of spelling), which is more mystical than the northern school known as Maheyana(also unsure of spelling). Both schools are superior to Christianity and any type of meditation is good. I am drawn to the northern Zen style Buddhism because of its practicality and simplicity so study both if you have time to see which style fits your personality better. I recommend you read everything on Buddhism you can as it will open doors to self discovery that Christianity could never allow. Buddhism does not teach punishment for chosing the "wrong" practice because Buddhism is focused on self-realization rather than on finding the "right" external god. Enjoy your new found freedom in life away from the death cult of Christianity.
through one of the respopnses to old hippie's strange noise thread, a thought occurred to me.
do atheists or agnostics believe in ghosts?
and if you do, what do you think they are?
Hi again RWC,
I can't speak for all Atheists but I'd say most of us are a pretty skeptical bunch. Ghosts inhabit the same realms as the gods and monsters, that is, those of the foggy imagination. Without convincing evidence ghosts are just not ready to be deemed as real along with their friends Bigfoot and Nessie. I love to see shows on these subjects where paranormal investigators feverishly try to get the evidence needed to prove that these things are real but the good stuff is always just out of reach.
Until better evidence is produced I'd say that ghosts,demons, and other spirits are not real. I am willing to admit that such things are possible along with God but I need more evidence before I can seriously start planning my life around them. Most of this stuff can be explained far more easily and rationally by science than the far-fetched and complex puzzles/rituals the mediums, psychics, and religious leaders would have us believe in.
Logic predicts certain patterns if things are real but the popular stories of the gods, angels,devils, and ghosts are usually beyond illogic and don't fit consistant patterns. For example, if demons are real why do they only attack the religious who claim God's protection but completely ignor godless scientists and Atheists who should be totally at their mercy? The same for the spirits of the dead. I have as many dead relation and friends as anyone but their ghosts never visit me or millions like me. If we all become spirits when we die and are capable of communicating with the living then why aren't we all doing it everyday? Why do demons and ghosts prefer night over day for their adventures? Or why do they need old spooky houses or ouji boards and the list goes on and on? The patterns just ring false and are clearly the results of overactive imaginations more times than not. I can't say every spiritual encounter is unreal or from a crackpot but from what I've researched most are.
By the way RWC did you see my responses on our earlier subject? I was out for a week so I hope you didn't think I had abandoned the thread. Good talking with you again on a very interesting subject.
just how do the 144,000 co-rule the earthly organization with christ?
i started thinking about this subject again after seeing the post on the watchtower as a false prophet.
do any of you remember how this was explained in the old days (i've been out so long i don't know if this is now "old light")?
Just how do the 144,000 co-rule the earthly organization with Christ? I started thinking about this subject again after seeing the post on the Watchtower as a false prophet. Do any of you remember how this was explained in the old days (I've been out so long I don't know if this is now "old light")? As I recall, the Society said that the living members of the 144,000 had the mysterious ability to pick up on what Jesus and God were thinking and then they somehow transferred this information to Watchtower Headquarters for dispersal to the rank & file JWs. The explaination was always very foggy and after reading Crises of Conscience I can see why.
Even Ray Franz was shocked to discover that the 144,000 really had no method in place to communicate with Headquarters and were never sought out for advice or consent on anything. Only his uncle, Fred Franz, really acted as the medium by which God "communicated". In essence, the explanation promoted by the Watchtower Society was yet another in a long line of lies. Not only were their interpretations and prophecies all false but even the method they claimed by which they came to them were just flat out untrue.
The old wine slurping-bread crunching bunch had nothing to do with how the Watchtower was run, unless they happened to be the President or his right hand man. One of the excuses the Society always used as to why they were not a cult was the claim that JWs did not follow a single powerful charismatic leader. This too is a lie as the policies and prophesies of the Watchtower Society have always come from one or two powerful men at the top who were the defacto dictators of the cult.
When confronted by his nephew in this regard Fred Franz admitted as much by saying he was a special designated teacher above all other JWs. Completely unknown to us R&F JWs back then was the fact that all of our strong held beliefs were the products of Fred Franz's and Judge Rutherford's fevered imaginations. Our whole lives revolved around what a few men made up from their own understanding while we were led to believe that the whole body of the living 144,000 "princes" were being guided by God. The Society's real leaders knew that their explaination was 100% false and yet chose to decieve us all in order to keep us from questioning their secret power and status. I remember thinking back then about just how the little old ladies in our congregation from the 144,000 could be directing the whole operation. Such questions were set aside as another in the growing catagory of the mysterious "deep things of God". It was deep all right!
this goes out to anyone (jw's and x-jw's).. i was just wondering last night about how jw's teach that jesus was the last adam; how he balanced the scales because he was perfect; how only the sacrifice of a perfect human body can redeem mankind from its sinful state.
(of course, other religion's may teach these things, too.
however, i've only lived my life as a jw so i can't speak on behalf of other faith's).. anyway, jesus came to earth and passed the tests that satan threw at him.
Mr. Biggs you've got it. This whole ransom sacrifice stuff is utter nonsense when simple logic is applied. If he was really a supernatural being Jesus would have already known that he would be rewarded greatly in eternity so it was easy for him to meet his tests. Many an "imperfect" mere mortal has suffered worse and died much harder without being assured of anything but oblivion so how is Jesus so special? Not that I think any of it is true anyway so I don't mean any disrespect to Jesus as a person, but see it as just a logic problem. Jesus may have been a real person but Adam is really just not possible so there is nothing to use Jesus as a sacrifice for. Nor would a super being of God's stature waste His time with such stupid cruelty...senslessly torturing and killing His son for no good reason! The whole idea is just insane.
what an interesting group here!
i have a question to toss out to those of you who were once active jw's that are now born again.. i was a "zealous" jw - raised as one and was an aux pioneer, etc.
my whole family is jw's (elders, etc.).
Hi Dawn,
You really hit the nail on the head about knowing what is really the "truth". We ex-JWs know it is possible to be completely fooled, something that alot of mainstream Christians have never experienced. I think for all of our pain this is a great advantage because, for most of us ex-JWs, our confidence/arrogance levels are at least modified for the rest of our lives into a healthier humble skepticism where I would be very reluctant to force someone to accept a belief or be willing to hurt or kill to convince someone I was right.
I am now content to openly debate about philisophical disagreements in a friendly manner because I know I have been wrong before. I think the most dangerous people in the world are those who believe they can't be wrong. I have strong opinions but not a die hard commitment beyond all other considerations. The World is huge and complex and there are no simple answers in black and white for me anymore. I'm still an arrogant bastard but now I'm not willing to be 100% on any idea ever again.
in the context of this forum, happiness at its core is generally defined in one of two ways: a) being a witness or, b) not being a witness.
most of us consider ourselves happier since leaving the organization.
because of a recent discussion between violetanai and marilyn, i've thought about it some more, only to reaffirm the truth i already discovered some time ago.
Hi Marilyn,
I have some experience in dealing with this subject because my girlfriend is clinically depressed. We have tried everything. She has been given every drug imaginable by her Psychiatrist and so far only Luvox has had any effect, but the side effects are so bad that she couldn't use it for long periods. I get very frustrated with her but I have to remind myself that she really can't help it. She finally tried smoking pot(she had never used it even recreationally before) which seemed to help but it is illegal and therefore expensive. I wish she could just take a THC pill because I fear smoking pot has some of the same health risks as cigs and it burns her throat but since it is not recognized as a standard drug this is impossible. All other herbs tried so far have been ineffective. I really feel sorry for her. I don't have any good answers yet but we are still going to keep looking.
in the context of this forum, happiness at its core is generally defined in one of two ways: a) being a witness or, b) not being a witness.
most of us consider ourselves happier since leaving the organization.
because of a recent discussion between violetanai and marilyn, i've thought about it some more, only to reaffirm the truth i already discovered some time ago.
This is not a very popular answer but happiness is not a choice of free will. As much as I dislike the Watchtower Society and think that it can destroy people's lives, it cannot, by itself, make one happy or unhappy. Though a very complex emotion, happiness is ultimately a brain chemical reaction largely determined by circumstances beyond our control such as genetics and our early developmental environments.
I think many naturally unhappy people self-select themselves for membership in the Watchtower cult because they are struggling to find radical solutions for their unhappiness. Unfortunately, these self-selecters often drag along others (family members and friends) into the cult who may not be as predisposed to feeling bad and these people can be made miserable by the high control and social pressure exerted by the Society. Extended periods of high stress may create body chemicals which can perminently alter our ability to feel joy but I think this is less a factor than plain old genetics.
The Watchtower cult probably has a larger percentage of mentally ill people than the same number of any given random population for these and many other complex reasons, but certainly, there can be perfectly happy healthy JWs who just happen to have personalities which are well suited to this lifestyle. I, on the other hand, am much happier after having left the Watchtower cult because I am naturally curious, adventurous, and an intelectual/cultural (as opposed to a physical jumping out of airplanes) risk taker. I am also somewhat antisocial (an introvert?), I do not trust authority figures, and I question eveything I am told by having to prove it for myself. These personality traits are deadly if one is to remain an effective and satisfied JW so I was guilty, stressed, and miserable which promted me to seek a way out of the "Christian Brotherhood" which for me was a living Hell.
If we are given some small choice in finding happiness, considering the brain chemistry we are stuck with, it would be in discovering and then adopting a lifestyle which matches our complex and unique personalities. There is no room in the Watchtower Society for unique individuals or diverse lifestyles and beliefs. If you are unable to conform yourself to the basic JW stereotype you will be unhappy. If you are already naturally unhappy and cannot fool yourself into believing that being a JW will make you happy then you will become clinically depressed, and some will just plain go crazy in that pressure cooker called the Watchtower Society. Most normal humans will not be happy as brainwashed dubs but there are a few folks who like it just fine. If it fits them and they don't mind living a lie then there is no way to get them out.
If someone is naturally depressed leaving the Watchtower will probably not cure them and make them happy, just as becoming a JW couldn't make them happy in the first place. Being rich or poor or having all your dreams come true probably won't make everyone happy or unhappy either. To some extent, our ability to be happy is predetermined by factors beyond our control whether we are religious or not. Christianity by itself will not make you happy nor will Atheism.
