Posts by Liberty

27

Latest e-mail: A JW "insider's" spin on Bethel expansion

by sir82 in

jw
friends

for your viewing pleasure.

how would you reply?.

sent: sunday, december 02, 2007 9:19 amsubject: fw: now public!

Liberty

The J-dub 1984ish ability to hold two contradictory thoughts as both true at the same time is amazing. If the big "A" is coming soon how can you have seven year construction timetables?

We were always taught that the Society's holdings would be confiscated when the "Beast" turned on religion so using the excuse that these facilities would be useful in the "New System" doesn't hold water. Wouldn't they be subject to destruction since they would be held by the Devil's governments at the time of the big "A"?

Complete nonsense. The Watch Tower leadership obviously doesn't believe that the "End" is coming any time soon.

42

Godless souls

by Aleman in

hello again!.

i never thought that so many are believers of a godless life.

i would like to know, because i just don't understand, how anyone can live life feeling god does not and can not exist?

Liberty

Welcome Aleman,

I could no longer live comfortably with the thought that an omniscient and omnipotent God could create a Universe of such random and horrific cruelty. Other major problems I had concerned the illogic of the Bible. Once I no longer accepted that the Bible was the word of God I realized that even if there was a God He had not bothered to communicate with us in any way and that we were left to figure it all out on our own.

In short, I just sleep better knowing that the Universe is random and cruel because there is no intelligence behind it rather than a conscious and insane evil.

I studied science at University and came to appreciate the scientific method, skepticism, observation, and the application of reason to observation as opposed to religious superstition. I came to understand the real truth behind evolution. I developed a greater knowledge of History, Geology, and Astronomy which most Christan Fundies can't even imagine. At the University I was also exposed to fellow scholars from nonchristian cultures and their opinions. All of these learning experiances presented me with a healthier and wider world view than I ever had as a JW.

31

What did Jesus mean by "this generation"

by Fisherman in

what did jesus mean by "thisgeneration" ?.

34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

in all 4 gospels, every time that jesus said "this generation" he was refering to his contemporaries, the people that lived in his time.

Liberty

I appreciate your response Leolaia. I think I understand your point that some scholars speculate that there are earlier sources from which later Gospels were compiled. I am not a Bible scholar but I stand by my statement. There are no extant Gospel texts known which can be dated before 70 A.D. nor are there any other documents known which predict the destruction of Jerusalim dated before 70 A.D.. Certainly I can accept that there may be some yet to be discovered, but until they are revealed and properly dated I will remain skeptical of the prophecy. If I am wrong please let me know.

31

Are we in some sort of "LAST DAYS"?

by Open mind in

i'm not talking in the biblical sense necessarily.

you can argue scriptural "last days" until you're blue in the face.

(jcanon & obves make that clear on at least a weekly basis.).

Liberty

Great post nvrgnbk! It so echos the reality of our times rather than the doom-sayer JW type crap. The reality is that we are living in the best times ever. The easy access to news fools us into believing that the "world is going to Hell in a handbasket" but the truth is much more optimistic. People are living longer better lives on average. I have lived 46 years and have never personally come across someone who was starving to death. Not many 150 years ago could say the same.

I have been guilty of making these wrong assumptions as well especially in regards to the terrible state of our education system. I laugh at the bimbo who doesn't know France is a country on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader or along with Jay Leno when he askes people on the street the simple questions they can't answer. The reality is that just 150 years ago the vast majority of the population was illiterate and had never traveled from their homes beyond a five mile radius. Ignorance was the norm and not showcased for entertainment. The vast majority of people worked in back breaking subsistance agriculture from dawn til dusk and lived in filth and discomfort beyond our imaginations and lived very short unpleasant lives.

31

What did Jesus mean by "this generation"

by Fisherman in

what did jesus mean by "thisgeneration" ?.

34 truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

in all 4 gospels, every time that jesus said "this generation" he was refering to his contemporaries, the people that lived in his time.

Liberty

Dawg hit the nail on the head. There is NO evidence what so ever that any Gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem. Most of the evidence points to them being written well after. Hence, no fulfilled prophecy since the prediction was written after the event. If I wrote a prophecy in 1990 about the start of WWII happening in 1939 there is NO super human prescience involved. If you can't prove that I predicted it prior to the event then it is NOT prophecy.

NONE of the other things Christ supposedly predicted ever came true either. It has been 2000 years people...Jesus is not coming back! IT ISN'T REAL! Zeus, Oden, Allah are ALL figments of the imagination just like Jesus and Jehovah. That is why we have been waiting 2000 years because NOTHING is going to happen. All the conjectures and mental gymnastics used to make the Bible make sense is a waste of time. If there was a God and He had an important message for humanity wouldn't He just simply tell us and do so in a clear and timely mannor without waiting thousands of years with only a riddle book for a clue???

Just the fact that EVERY End Times interpretor has gotten it wrong should tell you something.

40

ATHEISM - Better World When Christian Are Gone?

by writetoknow in

stereotypes and prejudicessynopsis.

genocide is the ultimate expression of hatred and violence against a group of people.

this chapter traces the steps by which a group becomes the target of prejudice, discrimination, persecution and violence.

Liberty

Religionists are so brainwashed by their own violent history of oppression that they don't understand rational statements. Even the most radical speaker at this conference never came close to advocating the killing of Christians, the language was very clear to rational people that atheism should replace Christianity in the same way Steady State Geology was replaced by Plate Tectnonics. No ardent Steady Staters were killed in the process, scientists don't kill their opponents they convert them with evidence or leave them to their blubbering insanity.

You are all still welcome to believe in a Flat Earth or that the World is only 6000 years old because scientists don't kill people if they continue to believe in things that have no good evidence. A lot of hulabaloo about nothing.

People are people, Christians are sometimes crazy, violent, and evil and Atheists are sometimes crazy, violent, and evil but I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Christians as a group have a lower rate of these human defects than Atheists or any other religion. Thankfully the vast majority of the world's population is relatively peaceful and reasonable regardless of their beliefs or lack of belief.

12

Standing in the Way of Stem Cell Research

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

standing in the way of stem cell research.

by alan i. leshner and james a. thomsonmonday, december 3, 2007; page a17 .

a new way to trick skin cells into acting like embryos changes both everything and nothing at all.

Liberty

Thanks to Christianity's influence in the late Roman Empire and into the Middle Ages we are already 1200 years behind where we could have been as far as economics,science, and technology go. Just the books they destroyed and intelligent people they burned was bad enough but they also created a hostile environment to progress in general leaving us 1200 years of stagnation. People in Europe in the year 1000 had a much lower standard of living than the Romans did a thousand years before them.

Religion still stands in the way of progress as it's ignorant followers vote to ban cloning and stem cell research and waste valuable school resources with Intelligent Design arguments and Abstinence Only Sex Ed.. It is so sad that reason and logic are still being impeded by religion.

19

Was the CA expense ever justified to the elders?

by AK - Jeff in

at every single circuit assembly i attended, there was always the inevitable 'accounts report'.

it was pretty much always the same;.

"our expenses for the operation of this fine spiritual meal is estimated to be $18,000.

Liberty

The whole arrangement is a scam even if the expense accounts were 100% honest for each assymbly because the Watch Tower Society always makes money on the literature that is moved at one of these things and it is really a "whip up the sales force" event anyway. Why are the publishers a.k.a. the salesmen paying to participate in the first place? It is the Watch Tower Society that benifits the most from these things money wise and asking for more donations is just gravy money. When I go to a buiness related convention my employer pays for everything since it benifits them in the long run so how is the Watch Tower Society any different? The attendees should be paid for showing up, and not asked to foot the bill.

As I recall they did make money when they sold concessions since the labor was free and the food was cheap and bought in bulk and I'm sure they only stopped this because of sales tax issues. They also make money on parking. I'm sure they get kickbacks on the hotels that they make arrangements with. They also get discounts on the venue rental since they provide free clean up crews and security. The expenses are cut to the bone as it is so how could they keep coming up short?

In short, I am skeptical that these accounts reports are accurate in the first place. But even if they were, it is still a scam. The whole damn cult is a scam, the literature, the Kingdom Hall and other cult owned real estate, the free labor, the contributions to the "world wide work" are all misrepresented and shell-gamed to the Society's advantage.

64

still considering going back to meetings...

by oompa in

jw
friends

not that i want to or anything, but this therapist guy seems to think that it would be really helpful to my wife.

he says to pull out the good and ignore what you dont like, and that supporting my wife a bit in this way could be good for us as a couple.

it could also let us have at least some shot at keeping the old social life alive.

Liberty

I have enjoyed your posts oompa,

You've recieved lots of opinions on this so I may overlap some of what's already been said but I thought I'd put my spin on it. This thearpist doesn't understand that going to a JW meeting is NOT like going to a mainstream church service. Main stream churches do not use services to control an individual the way cults do.

I am an atheist but I went to a Baptist church with my then girlfriend (now wife) to make her happy early in our relationship but I felt no guilt or pressure from the services and the church expected nothing from me so a main stream church service is, at worst, just a waste of time. You well know JW meetings are far more intense and the foundations of guilt, mind control/independant thinking is BAD, Obey the FDS, type cult control are constant and the congregation will always expect more from you just because you are there.

Meetings are always a stepping stone to more activity in the cult. In my opinion, you cannot remain a passive meeting goer in the Watch Tower system simply because it is not tolerated the same way you can easily remain a passive mainstream church goer for years and years.

Do not go back to the meetings since it is so difficult to leave the cult in the first place. You will have recovery issues for years as it is and meetings will only make this worse. If you explain this to your therapist and they still think it is a reasonable concesssion to your wife I too would recommend a new therapist. Going to a Kingdom Hall is NOT like going to a mainstream church to make your wife happy as they are totally different things. It should be clear that one of the reasons you are in therapy is because of your cult involvement to begin with and you don't need any more abuse from the Watch Tower Society in the form of their brain washing meetings. It is not healthy. It would be just like an alcoholic being told that they should drink socially with their wife if it makes her happy. This is a clear case where your mental health needs to trump her "happiness" which is false anyway since she is clearly a cult victim also.

Best of Luck to you

4

Jesus, the Cross, and the Thief

by sinis in

so my old man and i went hunting the other day (he used to be a po, and myself an ms), and eventually the conversation came around to jw (he detests them after the fucked him over royal).

we start talking about jesus, and how the wts changes the comma when the bible says that jesus told the thief, "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise".

however is aware that the greek had no punctuation and it probably should have the comma before "today".

Liberty

The Watch Tower salvation plan is simply not Biblical nor does it mirror or represent any Biblical examples as your observation proves. I don't even believe in the Bible anymore but for those who do I think it is important to note just how off track the JWs really are. The WTB&TS conversion/baptism requirements are completely against Bible examples where on numerous occasions converts were convinced and baptized on the spot the same day WITHOUT any study questions, meetings, and field service.

The Watch Tower Society also tries to use the Noah/Flood story as an example to compare to their big "A" interpretation. Read the account straight from the Bible without the Watch Tower's extra speculations and it becomes clear that the destruction of all humans is a foregone conclusion predertermined by God with NO preaching work by Noah and NO provision in the Ark to save any converts. Noah is saved based only upon his covenent (grace) with God and Noah's family is saved NOT by working out their own salvation or even being judged good by God but saved only as a favor to Noah as a part of his covenent. Even the Ark building is not a "work" which saves Noah since God has already made His promise of salvation before it's construction.

Obviously, as you pointed out, the thief could not have worked for his salvation in those final hours on the cross but was saved only by faith and Christ's grace.