Posts by Lionel_P

19

How to Get the US Press to Notice?

by mikepence in

any thoughts on how to get the us press to cover the great un library card scandal?.

does anyone have a very simple un fiasco for dummies site that we could refer press members to?.

any thoughts on this?

Lionel_P_Hartley

I'd suggest including Mr. Bates' Tablet article along with any letter together with a brief desc. of what the Tablet is.

Lionel Poles Hartley

11

Letter to the Editor of The Tablet

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

i came across this letter in the tablet.

it isn't available online so i have had to type it in.

i've ignored formatting (italics etc) and can't be held responsible if i've mistranscribed anything from the original.. **************.

I came across this Letter in the Tablet. It isn't available online so I have had to type it in. I've ignored formatting (italics etc) and can't be held responsible if I've mistranscribed anything from the original.

**************

Sir, When Stephen Bates dipped his jam jar into the Watchtower's waters, it looks as though he got more than he bargained for. His article “Trouble at the Watchtower'' (3 November) provides a rather concise survey of the problems confronting Jehovah's Witnesses. But can a root cause for these problems be identified? And why do the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's (WTBTS) leaders so often transform matters that should be trifling into touchstones of theocratic fidelity?

The answer can be traced to what is, in practice, the fundamental doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses; that they are God's sole “channel of communication” with mankind. This remarkable doctrine, which has become a maxim often stated in the movement's Watchtower magazine, provides the theological basis for its stringent definition of apostasy: “Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.'' This definition, which is more akin to heresy than apostasy, is the official guideline used by chapel elders who preside, in Star Chamber fashion, at the judicial hearings which regularly face those accused of apostasy.

Obviously the leaders of any religion that officially teaches that it is God’s unique mouthpiece will have a difficult time explaining changes to doctrine. Unfortunately the WTBTS also has the somewhat compulsive habit of attaching specific dates and time periods to Bible prophecies, such as Armageddon. As these dates and periods expire, as they all have so far, with expectations unfulfilled, the underlying doctrines must be altered. To effect change, the leaders may claim to have received “New Light” which the faithful must immediately embrace. Failed prophetic speculations by the leaders are often attributed to their own human imperfection which caused them to “run ahead”, but only “out of enthusiasm” and with the “purest of motives”. Intentional obfuscation is also employed, as with changes related to medical uses of blood, with new policies being introduced so gradually that no one really notices.

The WTBTS reaction to the UN fiasco is a case in point. Their London spokesman stated in a letter published on a Witness talk-board that the organisation affiliated “for the sole purpose of obtaining access to the UN's library''. Further, the letter implied that at the time the WTBTS applied to the UN – in 1991 - no requirements were in place that a non-governmental organization (NGO) must actively “support the UN Charter'' and “mobilise public opinion in support of the UN and its agencies.'' Despite the existence of the 1968 UN Resolutions 1296 and 1297, which clearly spell out what is required of NGOs, the WTBTS leaders know full well that within the Witness community they will be believed.

Still, many Witnesses do recognise the mounting problems confronting their faith; yet they feel trapped, caught between the uninterested or even hostile audience they meet in their door-to-door preaching and a leadership they fear will accuse them of stubbornly asking “apostate questions'' if they do not acquiesce in the WTBTS stonewalling. For many, leaving is not an option. It may not always be the best solution anyway. For those who leave, or are ejected, often do so in a state of spiritual and emotional shipwreck, feeling that they have nowhere to go. Too often the result is depression, alcoholism and sometimes suicide.

So the next time two cheery middle-aged women knock on the door unannounced, armed with Watchtower and Awake! magazines, perhaps the kindest and most Christian thing to do would be to engage them in a gentle discussion about the serious issues facing their own version of the Christian religion. For while the Watchtower’s leaders know their flock - only too well, it seems – their flock plainly do not know them.

13

Cath. Encyclopedia agrees with WT re 607

by Cygnus in

jw
friends

under the heading "babylonia".

at first nabuchodonosor ii began a small guerilla warfare against jerusalem; then, in 607 b.c., he dispatched a considerable army, and after a while began the siege in person.. can any apostate tell me what's wrong with this quote?

Lionel_P_Hartley

Cygnus,

Mainly it's out of context I think;

Against the solemn
warning of Jeremias the Prophet, Jehoiakim refused tribute,
i.e. rebelled against Babylon. At first Nabuchodonosor II
began a small guerilla warfare against Jerusalem; then, in 607
B.C., he dispatched a considerable army, and after a while
began the siege in person. Jechonias, however, son of
Jehoiakim, who as a lad of eighteen had succeeded his father,
surrendered; 7000 men capable of bearing arms and 1000 workers
in iron were carried away and made to form a colony on a canal
near Nippur (the River Chobar mentioned in Ezechiel, i, 1),
and Zedekias was substituted for Jechonias as vassal King of
Juda.

Some ten years later Nabuchodonosor once more found himself in
Palestine. Hophra, King of Egypt, who had succeeded Necho II
in 589 B.C., had by secret agents tried to combine all the
Syrian States in a conspiracy against Babylon. Edom, Moab,
Ammon, Tyre, and Sidon had entered into the coalition, and at
last even Juda had joined, and Zedekias against the advice of
Jeremias, broke his oath of allegiance to the Chaldeans. A
Babylonian army began to surround Jerusalem in 587 B.C.. They
were unable to take the city by storm and intended to subdue
it by starvation. But Pharao Hophra entered Palestine to help
the besieged. The Babylonians raised the siege to drive the
Egyptians back; they then returned to Jerusalem and continued
the siege in grim earnest. On July the 9th, 586 B.C., they
poured in through a breach in the wall of Ezekias and took the
city by storm. They captured the flying Zedekias and brought
him before Nabuchodonosor at Riblah, where HIS CHILDREN WERE
SLAIN BEFORE HIM AND HIS EYES BLINDED. THE CITY WAS DESTROYED,
AND THE TEMPLE TREASURES CARRIED TO BABYLON. A VAST NUMBER OF
THE POPOLATION WAS DEPORTED TO SOME DISTRICTS IN BABYLONIA, a
miserable remnant only was allowed to remain under a Jewish
governor Godolias. When this governor was slain by a Jewish
faction under Ishmael, a fraction of this remnant, fearing
Nabuchodonosor's wrath, emigrated to Egypt, forcibly taking
Jeremias the Prophet with them.

5

Society lifts ban on Spiritual Fornication

by LovesDubs in

jw
friends

.....so they can do it and nobody else can...check this post from the newsgroups that i responded to:.

subject: re: watchtower official response to un scandal.

from: [email protected] (lovesmenot).

Lionel_P_Hartley

What is amazing is that Dubs will just believe bare statements by the WTS. If the WTS is telling the truth then why doesn't it simply publish an article providing the proof? That way, JWs would have a convincing answer if this came up in the field. As it is, the WTS, even if it is telling the truth, is seriously hindering the preaching work by its apparent stonewalling.

This is an argument I am trying with JWs - sure, the Society may be in the clear, but why doesn't it provide the actual evidence. After all, some could be stumbled when all the Society needs to do is to produce the documents.

Lionel

48

A WTS lie for UN "association"

by hawkaw in

full deposit: publications and masthead documents in english.

partial deposit: publications in english.

Lionel_P_Hartley

You Know,

It seems I hit a nerve in that Royal Jelly-like Body of yours. LOL. "Franzian Drone" is rich coming from a rabid fan of Lyndon LaRouche and Freddie Franz. Is that, perhaps, why you're so hot under the collar about this UN business? That Lyndon disapproves?

At least your reply shows that you haven't entirely lost your ability to spew invective. Yr recent posts have been downright dull, even for you.

As for the Nazis, that Rutherford's currying efforts failed doesn't imply that they weren't tried. How about Malawi; maybe the brothers there should have been allowed to buy a ~~library~~ party card too, because I'm sure it would have been more convenient for them than being torurted and killed.

You Know, you are a lying old fool. Your predictions and prognostications are as silly and as tiresome as those of your lying handlers in Brooklyn. All of you self-professed members of the body of the Lord will have your souls spliced from your fleshly organisms to be dumped into the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. Because, your lot, like that of all who would "lie for Christ" is with the dogs and, oh yes, the fornicators with whom you seem to be so fascinated.

I don't believe that nonsense myself, but I know you do.

Cheers,

Lionel

ps: Robert - not disfellowshipped and, actually, am in rather good standing with the brothers although I no longer attend.

9

No Poppies For JW's?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

hey, did you wear your poppy today?

* http://www.geocities.com/traditions_uk/poppyday.html.

bang on 11am, everything came to a stop, even the shoppers in tesco's stood silently and still for 2 minutes to recall the remembrance ritual of the armistice that occurred on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, 1918, and has since been a time when we remember all those who died under enemy fire.

Lionel_P_Hartley

E-man,

Excellent. Here's an article that I liked in the Observer by John Mortimer (of Rumpole fame???) that you may have seen already. http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,591345,00.html

Lionel

30

Positive Name For ExJWs...?

by ISP in

jw
friends

i don't like the word apostate.......because it simply is not the case in so many cases.

i think the term 'truthseeker' would be better and quite annoying to jws who think they are!.

come on you truthseekers!.

Lionel_P_Hartley

While I don't think a formal name is a good idea, I couldn't resist Jehovah's Dot Com-ers. Sure to strike terror into the Borg.

Lionel

15

WTS Leaders - Mass Killers

by Lee Elder in

jw
friends

the great and widely unrecognized killer of jehovah's witnesses is without.

question the watchtower society's irrational policy on the use of blood.. there are enough studies and information available for us to conservatively.

estimate 900 deaths among the jw population each year - the actual.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Lee,

Unfortunately no one really cares about loss of life. Osama bin Laden is being gone after mainly because his actions provided an excuse for politicians to do what they were unable to do prior to Sept. 11. bin Laden gave Bush the agenda he needed to make a mark in an otherwise certain to be lackluster presidency. The _only_ way to stop the WTS is to attack on all fronts. Single issue agendas are doomed to fail. What I mean by this is that all agencies for change have to unite behind a single anti-WTS banner. They love it when people say "if they'd just change their policy on, say, sex offenders then I'd kill my web site." Better to say, after they are forced to change x then I will press for y.

Lionel

17

Did you have dream's of bringing the society down?

by sleepy in

so when you started to work out all you thought so logical and true was actually rather pear shaped what did you think?.

"i'm ging to bring this organisation down".

"when i tell people this (whatever point you like 607 etc)they'll be shocked like me and want answers".

Lionel_P_Hartley

Mindchild,

I fully agree. However, I was really talking about what may be practical. Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that the WTS will ever be brought to justice for what it has done. It will probably just evolve into a much less toxic form of religion. Any pressure that can make that happen more quickly should be applied.
Ultimately, the WTS itself should deal with the problems it has created, not simply go out of business and leave the rank and file high and dry.

Lionel

17

Did you have dream's of bringing the society down?

by sleepy in

so when you started to work out all you thought so logical and true was actually rather pear shaped what did you think?.

"i'm ging to bring this organisation down".

"when i tell people this (whatever point you like 607 etc)they'll be shocked like me and want answers".

Lionel_P_Hartley

sleepy,

I don't think "bringing the organisation down" should be the goal. After all, imagine if the WTS shut down, what would happen to the 6 mill + (15 mill + if you include other adherents)? The trauma that many here feel during and after leaving the WTS shows that exiting may not always be best, although for many it is currently the only option. So, what are reasonable goals?

(i) Abolish the DFing policy

(ii) Abolish the blood policy

(iii) Gradually drop the premise that the WTS speaks exclusively for God

(iv) Tweak doctrines a bit to lose the sense of urgency re: Armageddon

(v) Encourage JWs to engage in more community oriented and voluntary activities

Then it could be a pretty decent religion. Will it happen? Yes, these changes are already in progress although the WTS doesn't like to admit it for obvious reasons. The real question is, how soon?

Access to information will certainly cripple the WTS's growth unless they re-evaluate and strike out in new directions. Their ossified leaders fail to see that the Society has a huge opportunity at this point to renovate and energize it's followers.

Lionel

Lionel_P_Hartley

Posts by Lionel_P_Hartley