Posts by losthobbit

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

losthobbit

Hi Maksym

You asked if I understood what you wrote.

I understood some of it... probably easiest if I tell you what I didn't understand:

I don't understand the ranking system, why certain creatures are ranked above others, nor why it matters in a discussion about the soul.

I should probably tell you, before you start explaining further, that when it comes to important topics I only trust books, people and thoughts for which there is enough evidence, or reasoning. For that reason I distrust the bible, and am more interested in logical reasoning / explanations, like what I wrote right up at the top of this thread.

Anyway, I did ask this in a Jehovah's Witness forum, so I did expect some answers to come from the bible

13

What is the soul?

by losthobbit in

having been religious i often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view.

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

losthobbit

J. Hofer... I want to argue with you, but I know that will just end in frustration.

NomadSoul, you wrote:

"Are you referring to a robot that just acts human? Or a robot that is constructed exactly like we are with an artificial brain that functions EXACTLY like ours? Would that make a difference in your statement?"

Good question... when I refer to robot, I think of something that acts human (simulates human intelligence). That is my understanding of AI. ... And yes, if a robot were constructed as an exact, biological clone of a human, that would make a difference to my statement.

You asked

"What do you think the clone is going to say if you ask him the same question?"

Since the question was asked before the clone was made, it wouldn't have been able to. To ask the question after the clone has been made defeats the point of the question.

You said

"So let's say in the future they can make a replica of the brain, all it's functions, everything. They can theorically transfer all that information to this brain. All your thoughts, ideas, and memories will still function. You would also have feelings since the artificial brain would also have the same capabilities."

I disagree. It would not be me, but rather a copy. If the replica is made while I am still alive, I imagine I will remain the original person. I will not be the copy. I (my soul) is not transferred into another copy of myself just because it consists of a copy of my thoughts.

Designs, who's Sam & Dave?

Clarity, sorry... I don't actually know what JW's teach about resurrection. Do they teach that the soul dies? Something will have to be kept in order to make sure the recreation is you. I call that thing, the soul. I believe that the soul is you, not your thoughts... for example, if you get Alzeimer's disease, even though you lose your thoughts, you are probably still you, and probably have the same soul.

13

What is the soul?

by losthobbit in

having been religious i often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view.

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

losthobbit

Thanks ProdigalSon... I'll take a look at that site.

MadSweeney... nope, never read it... why do you ask?

13

What is the soul?

by losthobbit in

having been religious i often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view.

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

losthobbit

J. Hofer, if pain is simply a message, why is it unethical to inflict pain on someone?

15

'God is love' . . . yeah right, dream on.

by 3Mozzies in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc1vt9s9v8q.

.

losthobbit

I love this forum!

13

What is the soul?

by losthobbit in

having been religious i often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view.

i have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: the beginning of time, and the soul.. my understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night.

it is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.. perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which i think is partly correct, but i will share some examples as to why i think it isn't that simple.. i don't think of humans as being their bodies.

losthobbit

Having been religious I often searched for evidence agreeing with my point of view. I have since left my religion, because of the vast amount of evidence against it, but there are still two concepts that boggle my mind: The beginning of time, and the soul.

My understanding of what the soul is, is not a ghost that floats around, scaring people at night. It is you, the thing that makes you alive, that allows you to experience pain and happiness, and differentiates you from a robot.

Perhaps you're believe that pain and happiness are merely electrical signals travelling around in your brain, which I think is partly correct, but I will share some examples as to why I think it isn't that simple.

I don't think of humans as being their bodies. I think of us as being our souls, using our bodies and brains to understand and interact with the world.

Example 1 - An empty universe

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Imagine a universe without people or animals. Nothing that happens within the universe would matter at all. All the billions of stars and planets would serve absolutely no purpose. Nothing matters until a single soul exists, having the ability to experience pain and happiness, and a body to receive information about its surroundings.

Example 2 - A robot

Imagine a scientist creates a robot. He uses a variable, called happiness, which can have a value from zero to a hundred, in order to simulate happiness. This robot acts and looks exactly like a human. If you roll it down a cliff, sensors will case the happiness variable to reduce its value, and cause the robot to emit pain noises. Anyone watching this will feel sorry for the robot, because they don't know that it doesn't have a consciousness, it doesn't have a soul, and cannot really experience pain. Only the scientist will not feel sorry for it.

Example 3.1 - Evil's clone

Imagine someone who doesn't love. The only person they care about is themself. This person is pure evil. He likes to kill people, but he loves himself, and hates experiencing any kind of pain.

He is going to be frozen, and an exact clone is going to be made of him: every single atom is going to be the same.

Before the procedure, he is asked, "When you wake up, we're going to beat one of the two of you. Does it matter which one we beat?"

His answer is obviously that he would prefer the clone to be beaten, and not the original. As far as the science I am aware of is concerned, it shouldn't matter, because both humans are exactly the same. It does, however, make sense if you say that his soul exists in the original body, and is not made up of atoms.

Example 3.2 - Evil's future

Imagine a slightly different scenario: Mr Evil, above, is asked whether he would prefer to be beaten tomorrow, or thirty years in the future (and somehow they guarantee he will still be alive then). I think most people would say that it doesn't matter to Mr Evil, because the tomorrow Mr Evil, and thirty years from now Mr Evil will still be the same person. But, will he? Most of the atoms in our bodies are replaced within our lifetime. Google "what percentage of atoms are replaced in our bodies"... you will see sites saying 98% of your body is replaced every year!

In fact, how do we even know, that when we wake up tomorrow, we still have the same body that we had yesterday? If we have a new body, we will have a new brain, and new memories, so we probably wouldn't know.

Example 3.3 - Evil's 50 / 50

Mr Evil is told before he is cloned that they're going to do an additional operation while he is frozen:

They're going to swap half of the atoms in the original body with half of the atoms in the clone.

"Which one can we beat, Mr Evil?"

Any idea what his answer would be, and why?

Example 3.4 - Evil's replacement

Same as 3.3, but all the atoms are replaced, one by one, until eventually the clone is the original, and the original is the clone.

"Which one can we beat, Mr Evil?"

Any idea what his answer would be, and why?

Someone said something that bugged me. They said that they were worried that if we create artificial intelligence, and it comes out slightly stupid, we wouldn't be able to switch it off, for ethical reasons. Hopefully no-one here thinks that, because AI will not have a consciousness, and it won't have a soul.

There are also people who believe that if you were able to upload your thoughts into an artificially intelligent computer, you could come alive again... I strongly disagree with that.

There was also a movie, about a magician, who made a clone of himself, and drowned his original body in secret in order to give the illusion that he was transporting himself. This is a bit like how a Star Trek transporter could work: make a copy, and delete the original. The magician was worried, because he never knew whether he would be remain the original, or become the clone.

I think it's quite obvious that he remained the original, which he drowned. My understanding, is that it's because the original body is connected to his soul.

I'm really keen to hear if anyone has any insight into this.

Does what I've written make sense?

Do you have an explanation as to what the soul is?

Do you think animals have souls?

Do plants have souls?

Are souls made of atoms?

18

An exodus from faith. Deconversion from Christianity and ones eventual progression into atheism. Highly recommended!!

by whereami in

"who doesn't like a good de-conversion story?

i'm sure we have all read or heard of many, but rarely have i found any as eloquent, comprehensive and deeply descriptive as this one by an ex-christian on youtube, by the name of taylorx04.. the full video series is over an hour long and covers a great many of the standard arguments used both by atheists and apologists, describing in detail the exact mental gymnastics involved in changing one's mind on a matter of faith".. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofk2qf9uurm&feature=channel_video_title.

losthobbit

These are the questions I was asking during my deconversion...

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo6m-FD_Sto

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9aXOngoGBw

How do you embed a video?