Bump.
Ultimately, while I do not believe Ray Franz would lie, he was human. Can we trust his account on Mexico?
Has anyone ever confirmed this outside of Franz, with say a Mexican witness?
Knowsnothing
JoinedPosts by Knowsnothing
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Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi
by Knowsnothing ini posted on manki's crisis of conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol).
i'll give you a head start, manky.. http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html.
under the subheading 6.0 lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:.
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Why is the TRUTH not true enough?
by Terry inhere is a premise: the anointed are a faithful and discreet slave class who channel jehovah's truth.. here is a conclusion based on the above premise: the governing body print and publish the truth because jehovah directs them to do so.. .
considering the above premise and conclusion i now ask the following question:.
if what the governing body has published is the truth directly from jehovah---why does the watchtower society allow it to go out of print?.
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Knowsnothing
When does Truth become NOT true? True is True. -Terry
Absoluetly. When I met with an elder to announce my decision that I was DAing, this was the very subject we touched upon.
I asked, "Isn't the truth unchanging? You can't make red, blue from one day to the next."
His depressing response was, "God will always have an organisation." He didn't try to refute the dates, or the changes, or even try to excuse it.
In fact, HE ADMITTED THEY WERE WRONG. BUT REGARDLESS, THIS WAS STILL GOD'S ORGANISATION.
Truth doesn't matter. What matters is the "advancement" of said organisation. The continual and progressive refinement, a never-ending one at that. It reminds me of 1984, the statistics were always "getting better".
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What are the best Bible Translations?
by Londo111 ingrowing up in a jw family, my parents and my grandparents had many versions of the bible...not just the new world translation.
sometimes i read these.
but i always bought the hype that the new world translation was the most unbiased and most consistent in rendering hebrew and greek into the modern language.
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Knowsnothing
Every try Biblegateway?
It's funny that you are looking for "accreditation" when the actual writers were "illettered and common" people themselves.
This is another cool site, bible.cc
It compares many bibles at once with the same text.
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IAD - Internet Addiction Disorder
by sizemik indoes it exists?.
this article is quite interesting .
.. http://psychcentral.com/netaddiction/.
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Knowsnothing
It only becomes a problem if it takes over your whole life, and you begin to neglect your responsibilities. What one does to entertain oneself is one's own business.
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Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi
by Knowsnothing ini posted on manki's crisis of conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol).
i'll give you a head start, manky.. http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html.
under the subheading 6.0 lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:.
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Knowsnothing
I'm not quite sure I understood right, but it does seem someone got the date wrong for the last letter.
Sept 5, 1969: WT answers and refers to wrong letter dated Feb 4, 1960. The branch really quoted the June 2, 1960 letter.
I just took a look at the book now. Go to pg. 158.
The Sept. 5, 1969 letter indeed states that Feb. 4, 1960 is the "Society's stance on the Cartilla" letter, whereas Feb. 4, 1960 is the Mexican Branch's first correspondence with Bethel.
I don't think it is impossible for Bethel to get something dated wrong, no? Even with all the spell checking, etc. they must do to send something out, in the end they are human, not to mention that type of technology didn't exist then. It was all done manually.
Also, thanks Cedars and Diamondiz for your contributions and comments.
Diamond, you noted something that needs to be mentioned again.
This document (Military National Service Identity Card) is an important form of Mexican national identification, and its existence was formerly always requested by private and public employers, however, this identity document has ceased being required for obtaining apassport for international travel.
In the '70s, as CoC mentions, it indeed was compulsory to have the cartilla to obtain a passport. So, it was a pretty important little document, eh?
I also would like to mention some food for thought CoC provides us. Pg. 147
Which leads to the second reason for my questioning. I can
understand why a person could conscientiously desire to be
separate from the political strife and fierce competition that generally
characterize party politics. The factors that made me think
seriously about the situation in Malawi, however, was that it was
and remained until recent times, a one-party state. The Malawi
Congress Party was the country’s ruling party with no other parties
allowed. It thus became, in a de facto sense, equivalent to the
government itself, the “superior authority.” If a person could be a
citizen, and hence a member of the national political community,
without violating integrity to God, where was the evidence to show
that being submissive to the government’s insistence (expressed from
the head of state on down) that everyone purchase a card of the
ruling party would constitute such a violation of integrity to God?
I wondered then, and I still wonder, how major is the difference?That's what I wonder, too. How would the Malawi witnesses have violated their Christian neutrality?
Needless suffering could have been avoided if the Society didn't take such a rigid stance and let Witnesses decide for themselves, as opposed to having to fear the Society's dogmatic ruling and be forced to ask petty questions such as which sexual position in marriage is adequate, etc.
The Malawi witnesses wrote to the branch for a reason; they too were looking for a way out of the mayhem, yet all the Society did was shoot them down with a letter.
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Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi
by Knowsnothing ini posted on manki's crisis of conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol).
i'll give you a head start, manky.. http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html.
under the subheading 6.0 lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:.
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Knowsnothing
I posted on manki's Crisis of Conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol)
I'll give you a head start, manky.
http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html
Under the subheading 6.0 Lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:
Feb 4, 1960: Branch writes WTS with question. June 2, 1960: WTS answers. Aug 27, 1969: Branch writes again to WTS . Sept 5, 1969: WT answers and refers to wrong letter dated Feb 4, 1960. The branch really quoted the June 2, 1960 letter. WT mistake or Ray Franz/Don Cameron mistake?
It would be good to follow up on this, although I don't have the book with me on hand. Can anyone provide more info?
EDIT: I have the book with me, I just don't have the time right now to look into it further. Could anyone disprove this claim?
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Will the Governing Body Ever Make a Big Enough Mistake?
by What Now? in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:dontvertaligncellwithsp /> <w:dontbreakconstrainedforcedtables /> <w:dontvertalignintxbx /> <w:word11kerningpairs /> <w:cachedcolbalance /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="--" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif].
i am not scared of armageddon anymore.
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Knowsnothing
Look at any religion today. Patterns in religion are evident.
People want security. People want "answers". They will look for an easy answer.
Religion is the answer, or opium, for the masses.
How big are Mormon's mistakes? Since its inception! Faulty foundation. Yet 15 million members.....
Islam? Don't get me started. But yet again, billions of members, spanning since the 8th century C.E. And to top it off, its growing.
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Knowsnothing
First off, I'd like to puke.
Next, this bears repeating.
near the core of the religious experience is something remarkably resistant to rational inquiry.
I'll drink to that statement.
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CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE ARRIVED - Lets see what my guy (Ray franz) had been up to
by mankkeli incoc was delivered this evenning and i will be jacking it the whole night.
i might write a review to refute ray's argument after the reading and btw, i will be away from here for some time.
let it begin.. .
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Knowsnothing
I'll give you a head start, manky.
http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html
Under the subheading 6.0 Lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:
Feb 4, 1960: Branch writes WTS with question. June 2, 1960: WTS answers. Aug 27, 1969: Branch writes again to WTS . Sept 5, 1969: WT answers and refers to wrong letter dated Feb 4, 1960. The branch really quoted the June 2, 1960 letter. WT mistake or Ray Franz/Don Cameron mistake? It would be good to follow up on this, although I don't have the book with me on hand. Can anyone provide more info?
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Is living the moment all we have?
by Knowsnothing inthe past is gone.
the future isn't here yet.
there is no certainty of an afterlife.
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Knowsnothing
The past is gone. The future isn't here yet. There is no certainty of an afterlife.
Do you live the moment, get the most out of it? Or do you just go by life's motions?
I am guilty of going through the motions, life's daily routine. But, there is something special about truly enjoying the now, as opposed to pining for something pleasant in the past, or hoping for a better future.
Do you realise, even in the thinking of past or present, it is done in the now?
What do you think?
