Posts by LoneWolf

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

You're invitation is welcome, as this whole area of thought is something that I've pondered for at least half a century. I remember as a child (I'm 61 now) wondering how on earth Satan could think that he could get away with rebelling against an all powerful God. Was he suicidal?

I must be honest though in saying that my own thoughts run very similar to that of DakotaRed. I hope that you are like I am in that I don't wish to discuss this so much with those who agree with me as I do with those who don't. The reason is that when two (or more) earnest individuals disagree and then forget themselves in trying to find what the truth actually is, much can be learned. Those who disagree with me will pose the questions that I need to answer, and usually those answers will fall somewhere in the middle between our positions.

That said, I'd like to back up a bit and point out a something that figures very heavily upon the outcome of such a discussion as you propose. As you undoubtedly know, in mathematics if just one factor is left out, the answer will almost always be wrong, and sometimes so badly so that it will have no similarity at all to the real one.

This factor is well expressed in D Wiltshire's motto: "If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?"

I would suggest that what we don't know is a heck of a lot bigger than what we do know. If we don't factor that in, our results are going to be skewed. After all, we as humans are trying to figure out what both Jehovah's and Satan's thoughts and strategies are.

And please do not misconstrue my words as saying that it is wrong or futile for us to try, for I believe exactly the opposite.

Let me illustrate: Benjamin Franklin knew that 1+1=2. If we lived then and didn't agree with that, he would probably have called the little men in white suits and had stuck us in the cackle factory for a spell.

Since that time additional knowledge has become available. Let me quote from a post I made a few months ago:

What if we are dealing in the binary base where the only numbers used are “0” and “1”? Then it isn’t 2, it’s 10. At one time, such a concept would have been considered a silly mind game, but now that principle is the very heart of the computer world. They wouldn’t work without it. Who would have believed a century ago that the binary base would come to have such importance in the world now?

Or what if we are in the world of biology? There 1+1 can equal 2, or 200, or 2,000, or 2,000,000. It all depends upon how long the 1 has been with the other 1. Look at the rabbits in Australia and all of the environmental damage they’ve caused.

A further quote from the same post illustrates our position as humans:

. . . picture two of the most intelligent men of their age, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, trying to understand and fix one of today's computers when it was broken down.

When we look into the past and compare our knowledge now with what they had then, we appear to be light years ahead of them. That makes us feel good and flatters our egos. But in the process we tend to forget that there is far more yet to learn; many more “leaves” to discover on our “truths”.

We could say that we are like a sand flea on the beach in Alaska. Every evening at dusk they migrate down to the water line and every dawn go right back up to the vegetation line to sleep during the day. All we are is like the one who decided to go a little farther, climbed the 15 foot bank above the shore and looked out at the magnificent view that no other sand flea in history ever saw.

He would be quite proud of himself, wouldn't he? He may even wish to lord it over his fellows and claim to have all knowledge. But what he doesn't realize is that a few miles further inland, there is a mountain that goes up another 20,305 feet. That rather dwarfs his measly 15 feet, doesn't it? How are we any different?

(If you would like to read the rest of the post, here's the address): http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16624&site=3

Notice the difference in the manner we will approach these things:

If we refuse to recognize anything unless its parameters fall within those things we know and understand, then we will tend to draw conclusions and pass judgements on them.

If we recognize the factor of the unknown, we tend to concentrate on gaining additional knowledge.

Now look at what this one additional factor does to the questions you pose. Instead of only two, there are now at least four. They are:

1. God is almighty (And Adam didn’t have freewill.)

2. God gave Adam freewill (But God is not almighty.)

3. Both 1 and 2 are true (But we have yet to understand the mechanics of how the two coexist.)

4. Both 1 and 2 are false (As our understanding of them is inadequate and/or mistaken.)

Occam’s razor has its points. It’s a fancy way of restating the common acronym K.I.S.S., “Keep it simple, stupid! After all, if the taillight goes out, don’t start rewiring the car. You may have to, yes, but it’s much more likely that the bulb’s burned out.

We must remember that it is simply a tool like any other tool. It can be used correctly or incorrectly. One does not use a screwdriver to drive nails, nor use a hammer to drive screws. (Though I’ve known a few nuts that did. )

Many times it is useful, but in some problems and most research it does more harm than good for it limits the imagination as well as hinders the recognition of the complexities involved.

This said, I’d like your input on something. I’ve done a considerable amount of research and pondering on this whole matter and have come up with a few answers for some of the questions contained on this thread. You will note that I did not say they were the answers. They are merely possible answers that are still incomplete and in desperate need of a great deal more work and input. I would deeply appreciate your input and that of any others who wish to contribute.

I’m posting it under the heading “The Problem of Evil” in three episodes: “The Dilemma”, “The Plot”, and “The Answer”. As a bare minimum I think it will give you something to think about.

Hope you like them.

LoneWolf

1

Trial will be starting soon

by Amazing in

jw
friends

last april i related the account of a jw arrested for molestation.

he is sil's dad.

his trial was scheduled for august 2001, but it was continued over until the end of january ... nearly 9 months after the initial arrest.

LoneWolf

Thanks for the update. I'm interested.

LoneWolf

3

Difficult People . . .

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

a perspective on difficult people.

difficult people are among the many.

even when people appear not to be in rapport, they may actually be so.

LoneWolf

Hi, All,

I correspond to a small degree with a trainer of conflict resolution counselers (arbitrators) and just received an email from him that I thought was intriguing and apropos, especially in light of all the strife there has been on the board lately. I thought some of you may be interested.

I edited it lightly for clarity's sake, primarily punctuation. Here is part of it:

----------------------

A PERSPECTIVE ON DIFFICULT PEOPLE

Many are concerned from time to time about dealing with difficult people. Ever since my days in the San Francisco United States Attorney's office (where word was that I seemed to run the "crazies" department in the Tax Section), I've been fascinated with difficult people, finding most often that the real difficult person is me. Here are some highlights of the program "Mediating with Difficult People" presented to the Seattle Area Federal Executive Board ADR Consortium.

THE KEYS

It is never about you. Whatever is going on with the difficult person is only about them. When you attempt to manage a difficult person, you've moved into mere coping. This moves you off your center.

You are trying to make something happen instead of creating the opening to allowing that or something far better to happen. Making something happen requires effort and puts you in a position you'll need to defend. There is a quality of pushing the river. You don't need to do that.

Be gentle with yourself. You cannot be whole in your dealings with others without gentleness toward yourself as well as toward others.
No one gets it right all the time. Difficult people are among the many
opportunities life offers. The only difference between a stepping-stone and a stumbling block is how you use it.

Being gentle with yourself is pre-requisite to clarity of perception and to real effectiveness. What you resist, you become. This is the way life works. Resistance comes from inner hardness and inner hardness blocks your creativity, barricades your sense of humor and leads you down blind alleys. Inner resistance is entirely within your capacity to perpetuate or relinquish.

At times, there are circumstantial problems that seem to make people behave poorly, for example situations where a person is feeling deeply
threatened. Sometimes people are so overwrought they have a hard time being "present." Discourtesy is part of the everyday life of many. How can trust building have a chance in the face of such behavior?

Managing oneself is the key piece in the puzzle. In this work, there is no one, right answer. The point is to learn how to stop doing what you are doing that tends to keep an ugly pattern going. How you are, inside, in the moment, is everything when the pressure is on.

THREE STEPS TO MAKE MEETINGS WITH DISRUPTIVE PEOPLE PRODUCTIVE

A. Finding the Common Ground and Using It

(1) Seek each one's input on what the purpose of coming is, privately in advance of the meeting, or during the meeting or with the whole group. An apparently destructive purpose is okay. It may be a proxy for another unstated or even unrecognized purpose. Whatever their purpose, if you find yourself on edge about it, stop. Let it in at face value. Don't get mental about it. Let it be. Your being okay or neutral on the inside with whatever it is can allow threatening or disruptive agendas to melt away, because there is no longer need to fight for recognition of them.

(2) Elicit privately, where needed, ideas about how to accomplish what each one came to accomplish. Seeking advice is far better than giving it.

(3) Use this information about purpose and intent, where necessary, to maintain focus. If someone has told you their objective, you can ask them confidentially to decide whether present behavior is being helpful in advancing that objective. From what inner space within you this is done, determines whether it is perceived (consciously or unconsciously) as a manipulation or a statement of reality.

B. Building Rapport

(1) Offer Rapport to Every Single Person --- Do not neglect anyone. Rapport is an internal state of connectedness between people that
facilitates recognizing common ground, common interests, common humanity. In clean form, rapport allows everyone some slack. In dirty form when it is done for a purpose, it often has the opposite effect.

(2) Manage Your Own Expectations --- Do not make rapport (or anything else for that matter) an internal goal. You can have loosely held
external goals, but the more you weigh yourself down with expectations, the worse things are likely to go. Even when people appear not to be in rapport, they may actually be so. And when they appear to be in rapport, they may not be so. Check in your heart to recognize and release your own internal agenda. By your agenda, you make things about you when they are not about you.

(3) Reframe Sparingly --- use with caution. It is not necessarily desirable to reframe something unpleasant. Sometimes it is far more effective just being with a person's view and even, in some cases, carrying it to its logical extreme, without judgment. Judgment delivers a hostile message subconsciously even if not consciously, and renders you untrustworthy to the other person.

3. Relating To the Difficult Person ---

(1) Go with their flow using inquiry; balancing inquiry with response. They have been told "no," "impossible," and similar things
for a long time. That's where they would expect you to go. And it is where you do not need to go.

(2) Be responsive to them but do not push them attending and acknowledging. Push creates resistance. If you want to increase resistance, push.

(3) Speak indirectly to them through comments and observations made to others in their hearing. Sometimes things cannot be said
directly to someone but only to them through another. This can derail heavy opposition.

(4) Raise doubt --- few are impervious to doubt. Questions raised lightly and empathically may be more readily taken inside where they may help a person to gain perspective. A purpose to change someone is
lethal to the effectiveness of raising doubt.

-------------------------

It gives one food for thought.

LoneWolf

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

LoneWolf

yrs2long --- unequivocally, No.

Some of the most powerful men I have ever known hated that power and were very careful in how they used it. They realized the damage it could do.

Only in those individuals who have poor heart conditions, being self-centered, etc., use that power for personal glory by acting recklessly. Those who are truly powerful don't need to put on grand displays of it.

LoneWolf

11

One man's journey out.

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

neonmadman posted an intriguing question in his thread "the baby and the bath water" concerning the paths that we took when we left the society in order to get to where we are now.

unfortunately, much of that thread was highjacked into something irrelevant to the topic, but i wanted to respond and posted part of an answer on the thread.

i wrote this some time ago and sent it to a sister who was sticking her neck out trying to get me to come back in.

LoneWolf

LOL, Xena,

Actually, I'm more used to people cussing at me. Whenever people say nice things like that, I usually get all bashful and start scraping my feet.

LoneWolf

One Man's Journey Out --- Part 2.

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

here's the next installment on my journey out of the organization.. -----------------------.

but at the same time there were some far more serious aspects of the situation.

i was, after all, disfellowshipped.

LoneWolf

Hi, everyone,

Here's the next installment on my journey out of the Organization.

-----------------------

But at the same time there were some far more serious aspects of the situation.

I was, after all, disfellowshipped. Usually this is a good indication that there is something wrong with one’s heart condition. I viewed this as not merely possible, but as highly probable, for I have trusted this organization for most of my life to give me the truth. Therefore I felt strongly that I must expend considerable effort to finding out if that is the case. In turn, if it is, then I had to know where the error was and how it came to be. If I did not do that and came back into the organization without making such a determination, the problem would only be solved temporarily. Somewhere down the line it would crop up again. In other words, if my heart condition was bad, I had to know what to fix.

But there was something far more serious than this. I felt strongly that there was an injustice here and I had seen many other injustices. Could it be that this is not Jehovah’s organization after all? Could it be that I have been misled into following falsehood all of my life and even taught this falsehood to my children and misled them even as I have been? I didn’t think so, but the possibility was so horrible to contemplate that I knew I could not go further without knowing for sure.

Keep in mind here that there was some fairly strong evidence that this could be the case. Let’s take one of the most obvious ones as an instance. We at one time were taught, yes, taught that Armageddon was going to come in 1975. I remember in one meeting that everyone was laughing because we were told that the Society had bought insurance only through that year. Sure, I know that some would dispute whether or not we were ‘taught’ this, but the fact remains that we were to expect something to occur in October of that year, this was being ballyhooed everywhere, and the Society was fully aware of it. Never did they contradict it nor disavow being the source of it. Of course, 1975 was much the same as all other years with little significance of its own.

Now this put us all between a rock and a hard spot. On the one hand we have the Society that we all love and trust that has made a prophecy that did not come true. On the other hand we are nearly all familiar with the scripture at Deuteronomy 18: 22; “ . . . when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”

Yes, I am familiar with the excuse that went around later; that what was said about 1975 was never official because it was never published in the Watchtower. I am also familiar with the article ascribing this problem to wishful thinking on the part of some on the Society’s governing body and of their intense disappointment later. However, I am also aware that all of the hairsplitting and emotional explanations in the world make no difference. A prophecy was made. It failed. It takes no lawyer to figure out the meaning of that scripture in Deuteronomy. There is no leeway in it.

So, if this is Jehovah’s organization, there has got to be an explanation here as to how it could be in spite of that failed prophecy. That answer has to deal up front with the specifics, and not consist of vague evasions and picayune points of law.

This in turn led directly to another question that I hated. Is Jehovah’s way the right way in the first place? Detesting it though I did, I knew it had to be answered. Otherwise, I would be building on sand, and not the rock mass.

Thus it came about that eventually there were four monumental questions that forced their way to the forefront of all the chaos in my heart. (I say heart here because at the time there was no way that I could have put all this in words. It has taken many years to find those words.) Those questions were:

1. Do I have a bad heart and if so, in what way?

2. Is this truly Jehovah’s organization, or have I been deceived?

3. Is Jehovah’s way the right way to begin with?

4. And hovering over all of the above was the intense feeling that there was an opportunity here of incomprehensible immensity. But where? And how do I meet it?

I’m an analytical cuss, I guess. While in high school I took all the math courses I could get my hands on, including Plane, Solid, and Analytical Geometry. My grades weren’t high but I learned much. The careful statement of hypotheses and the step-by-step proofs in the lessons felt right to me. I have used this method ever since to analyze and solve the problems in life, and it has never let me down.

And so it was here. I had already divided the problem into its various components as listed above, so the next step should be tackling each of them one at a time. I did, and it went something like this:

1. Do I have a bad heart? This looked like a rough one at first because even scripture declares: “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?” Jeremiah 17: 9. But as I continued to examine the question I came to realize that I didn’t really need to do much searching on my own because there was one individual in this universe that would love to take me right to it. Yup. Old Satan would just love that. Indeed, upon further reflection, I realized that I wasn’t the only one interested. This, our heart condition, is the very core of that heavenly court case I was writing about a few pages ago. As such, every spirit creature in existence would have a deep and abiding interest in it. Satan and his followers for the reason that their continued existence depends upon our substantiating his allegations, and all the rest of them because they want to see Jehovah cleared, the hullabaloo over and for Satan, et al., to get their just desserts.

Of course, if I were to have Satan show me where my heart condition was bad, I would have to give him the opportunity. I couldn’t do that and be “safe” at the same time.

2. Is this Jehovah’s organization? The question as to whether I could be deceived or not was easy. Heck, yes, I could be. I’m not the most brilliant guy in the whole world. But who is doing the deceiving here?

I had a disadvantage though, when it comes to answering this question. I was raised in the Truth and had always tried to stick close to it. As a result, I didn’t have anything else to compare it with. I needed more knowledge. Thus it seemed that the answer to this question lay in the same direction as the one above. I had to allow myself to be exposed to that which I had been told were Satan’s blandishments.

3. Is Jehovah’s way the correct way? It seems these days that every monkey and his grandma are all claiming to be God’s only true servant and that what they teach is the only true way. The rest all seem to have their own pet philosophies that they teach with equal fervency. But all, whether they believe in God or not, have one thing in common. They all believe that they are more glorious, more intelligent, more holy, in short: just all around ‘more better’ than anyone else. How does one go about determining the truth in the midst of all this cacophony?

The scripture at Luke 19: 39, 40 came to mind. “However, some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to him: ‘Teacher, rebuke your disciples.’ But in reply he said: ‘I tell you, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.’” I sensed there was an answer here. Go to the things created. Exactly how to go about it I did not know yet.

4. Is there an opportunity here? Every bone in me was screaming that there was and that I was very close to finding it. It had to have something to do with the giving of an answer. I felt like a cat stalking a bird, with his tail twitching and lower jaw quivering. I sensed though that it would be unnecessary for me to search these things out. They would be coming to me, and all I had to do is meet them head on.

(To Be Continued)

LoneWolf

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

LoneWolf

Hi, all.

Thanks, Sunbeam, for your kind words.

I know many like your husband. Many feel that it is just so mixed up and confusing that they just throw their hands up in dispair.

NeonMadman --- I've heard of his book, but haven't had the chance to look it over yet. There were things in Hislop's book that I disagree with too, the prime one being that he was limiting his application to the Catholic Church. I was obvious to me that it really applied to all religion, for there are common threads that run through all of them.

You speak as though you read it. Was he perhaps a Catholic trying to defend his faith, or was he going deep into the subject and trying to show that the entire concept was wrong?

Sunchild --- I certainly understand how one could follow that path. I have a daughter who is a "child of nature", although she has never shown a desire to get into the magic end of things. She is so attuned to nature that she's even fed wild skunks out of her hand. She married a young man who is half Mescalero Apache, and I have become familiar with some of their beliefs. I'd like to write a great deal more on this, but that should really belong under another thread. If you see one concerning The Blind Men and the Elephant, click on it, because some of it will be for you.

You remind me of Opal Whitely. She was raised within a few miles of my place about 80 years ago and wrote a book while still a child. I've read portions of it, and it is written in a childish manner, but her viewpoints are so novel that the book took the nation by storm. My bet is that you would be utterly fascinated with her thoughts. She did almost the same types of things as you describe with the little things of nature. Wish I could remember the title. I think it was something about the woods.

It's probably out of print, but maybe not, as I think they are still selling some locally as it involves our local history. Check a book store if you wish. They've got a marvelous network for finding out of print books.

larc --- I thank you for your reply. I certainly knew that you had not chosen that path without a great deal of thought being behind it.
Your writing reflects that.

Hope I can get to the thread I mentioned above to Sunchild fairly soon. My thought is that all of us are trying to do the same thing but in different ways. We want to know the truth, where ever that may be. Remember that Jehovah says that he is truth and the God of truth? Truth is a big thing. Perhaps all we are doing is examining different sections of the elephant.

JT --- LOL. He boils it down to few words . . .

LoneWolf

11

One man's journey out.

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

neonmadman posted an intriguing question in his thread "the baby and the bath water" concerning the paths that we took when we left the society in order to get to where we are now.

unfortunately, much of that thread was highjacked into something irrelevant to the topic, but i wanted to respond and posted part of an answer on the thread.

i wrote this some time ago and sent it to a sister who was sticking her neck out trying to get me to come back in.

LoneWolf

Hi, all,

SixofNine --- No, I only use LoneWolf, unless the subject is one that the Society would get riled about, then I add my real name.

It's meant as a challenge. There policy of intimidation outrages me. What does any outfit that calls itself christian doing with something like that? It's anything but christian, and if they want to make my day, come on.

D wiltshire --- I concur. There is much that we don't know and don't even imagine. I've always wondered about time too. Did Jehovah invent it or . . .? According to some of the passages in scripture the angels apparently are subject to it.

I approach these things in two ways: The first is patterned after quantum theory. When one cannot determine where or what something is, then analyze its parameters and treat them as though it was the quantity. For instance, the saying at the bottom of your post is right on. If we crank that in to our figuring, then it changes our whole method of thinking. We expect the incredible and are willing to consider the impossible in new lights.

Secondly, if we are to give Jehovah an answer, then the things necessary will be within our ability to comprehend, if we have the courage to reach for them. Again, to illustrate, think back to when we first looked at Algebra. All those X's and other unknowns scared most of us to death and we were ready to throw in the towel before we even started. To most of us who succeeded, the gaining of the courage to try was the hard part. We don't want to psych ourselves out.

As to what Satan is trying to accomplish, you probably know that the Bible says that he is merely trying to survive. This whole subject is something I've dug into a great deal and is one of the things that I was speaking of when I said that I've come up with some answers that were satisfying. By that I do not mean that they are THE answer, but rather that I feel that I've been making good progress on them.

I love these kinds of questions too.

Bendrr --- You're more that welcome to use these things in any way you wish. All I ask is that if you make a million dollars of them, lend me a little bit.

I certainly agree on the shunning bit. What about the passage that tells us to encourage those who have been counselled so that they won't be overly sad? The whole things a crock.

LoneWolf

13

Are humans God's revenge on Satan?

by hungry4life in

jw
friends

i heard an interesting thought tonight.

does it seem accurate or was i sucked in by the speakers charismatic presentation?.

satan was an angel in heaven but decided he wanted to be like god (not just an angel).

LoneWolf

A side thought ---- I've always envisioned Satan's desire to be like God to especially revolve around his ability to create. IF there's any truth to that (and it's a large 'if'), there's a couple of intriguing spin-offs to that.

If Satan was the caretaker of the earth before his rebellion, then surely he would have had some knowledge of genetics. What would prevent him from utilizing that knowledge after he went bad? That would explain their ability to materialize and even have offspring in the form of Nephilim.

We could take it a step further. Nearly all of the ancient legends speak of wierd monsters back in that day too, from centaurs to satyrs to medusas to harpies to?????? If you were one of those fallen angels, wouldn't it be fun to create something wierd to blow the minds of all the inhabitants? Take a unicorn for instance. All they would have to do is take the horn growing genes out of a narwhale and stick them in a horse. Heck, we humans aren't all that far off of being able to do that right now!

Plus, if "all the earth is in the power of the wicked one", could it be that one of the reasons that mankind is experimenting with such things is that Satan is still interested in the subject?

Just something to sleep on.

LoneWolf

13

Are humans God's revenge on Satan?

by hungry4life in

jw
friends

i heard an interesting thought tonight.

does it seem accurate or was i sucked in by the speakers charismatic presentation?.

satan was an angel in heaven but decided he wanted to be like god (not just an angel).

LoneWolf

ROTFLOL!!! That's a new one on me! Kinda rough on us though.

As a serious answer though, I've got to agree with larc.

Plus, if that's all we are for, then why would Jehovah go to all of the trouble making prophecies and bringing about their fulfillment --- all leading to the destruction of Satan and crew?

I like it though, especially from the standpoint of the original thought. Even if it is crazy, it might stimulate someone else's brain to bring forth something that's more logical.

LoneWolf