I'm no Catholic by a long shot, but found this Transubstantiation stuff pretty far out, especially when Aquinas married the whole shebang with Aristotelian metaphysics. Methinks we get too caught up in the Fundie-JW/Hyper-rationalist paradigm (I know I sure have!), and often miss the multilayered, philosophically rich, metaphysic laden, sometimes MYSTICAL stuff found in some of these old religions. μετουσ?ωσις!
mindseye
JoinedPosts by mindseye
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64
Transubstantiation?
by leavingwt indoes anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?
if so, please elaborate.
theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).
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How did you visualize Jehovah when you were young?
by Matsimus ini was born as a third generation (perhaps even fourth gen. but my great great grandfather never got baptized) jw.
i remember that when i was young, perhaps about five years old, i would think about jehovah as this big black ghost with yellow eyes.
to me he was quite frightening, and i was constantly catious not to piss him off.
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mindseye
There was a really old elder (good guy) in our conregation who some of the kids thought was Jehovah. Then he passed away, and one was like "What happened to Jehovah?"
MY own conception of Jah changed throughout the years. As a young kid, it was like an old guy screaming "Get off my lawn!" As I grew older, it was the glowing guy out of the Rev book.
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Atheists, Agnostics or Theists .... So Who's Happiest?
by 00DAD ina couple of years ago, a psychologist i know made the off-handed comment that there is conclusive evidence that "atheists are not as happy as the ordinary, average person?
we tossed that subject around for a few minutes and then moved on to something else.
at the time, i didn't think too much about it.
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mindseye
Brain scans show that Buddhists are the happiest. (where they fall on the theist/atheist spectrum is a whole other subject)
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Megadeth frontman Dave Mustaine endorses Rick Santorum
by mindseye indon't know if this bit of pop culture made it's way around jw.net yet, but dave mustaine of megadeth has been in the news.
mustaine was brought up as a witness, but seems to have left pretty young.
he's now a born-again christian, and has made all kinds of off-color comments throughout the years about everything from mexican immigrants to homosexuality.
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mindseye
Don't know if this bit of pop culture made it's way around jw.net yet, but Dave Mustaine of Megadeth has been in the news. Mustaine was brought up as a Witness, but seems to have left pretty young. He's now a born-again Christian, and has made all kinds of off-color comments throughout the years about everything from Mexican immigrants to homosexuality. The latest is that he's tacitly endorsing Rick Santorum:
Dave Mustaine confirms Idiocy Twice in One Week
An interesting quote from Mustaine from the article: "It's pretty clear that they're taking prayer out of school ... I collect books and I have some really, really old schoolbooks, and God is mentioned on every single page. They're taking God out of the schools to dumb us down."
Also found this article about Megadeth bassist David Ellefeson who went to Seminary and discussed theology with Mustaine:
MEGADETH Bassist: DAVE MUSTAINE And I Study Scripture Together
A quote: "Dave and I never dispute scripture but rather we study it together," Ellefson said. "Dave is actually very well versed and read on scripture, especially the Old Testament."
Some other gems from Dave Mustaine:
In response to the British government's criticism of homosexuality, Mustaine said: "More power to them. It says in the Bible that men should not lay with men like they lay with women. I mean I don't wanna f--k up and not go to heaven."
An answer to a question about fellow rockers Judas Priest having an overt homosexual image, "I don't wanna talk about this. The last thing I need is a bunch of homos picketing us."
Usually people follow their intellect when they leave the Witnesses. Looks like Mustaine actually traded down.
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Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar
by leavingwt incoming to a kingdom hall near you, in a public talk.
jesus did not die on cross, says scholar .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7849852/jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html.
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mindseye
True, the actual man known as Jesus was probably not crucified on a 'cross'. But a theological outlook that is so hung up on such petty literalism misses the profound psychological/mythological/spiritual importance of the symbolism.
http://nexusnovel.wordpress.com/2006/09/07/connection-of-heaven-earth-symbolism-of-cross-tree/
http://www.amazon.com/Symbolism-Cross-Rene-Guenon/dp/0900588659/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
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Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?
by snare&racket inthis saying permeates this forum with higher frequency than most.
despite being an open atheist amongst lots of religious people in my life, i have never been accused of doing this and i have never heard this saying attributed to my choice... appart from here.. i thought it would be best to clarify why i (and i assume others) decided to leave the bible behind after leaving the wt society.. realising the wt society was wrong desroyed my world, for me it meant so much.
i had given so much to it too, it just had to be true!
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mindseye
Metatron, there are some valid elements to what you're saying, but some flaws as well.
I think that opinion polls show a general fear of atheism for an instinctive reason. People recognize how corrosive it can be in general society. It's not that atheism makes people into rapists or criminals or some nonsense like that, it's that it tends to move them towards nothing at all.
I somewhat agree with your premise. The aversion to atheism, particularly in America, is due to the fact that most American ideals are rooted it Protestant/Puritan ethics. Sociologist Max Weber convincingly proposed that American capitalism evolved from the Protestant "work ethic." Many Americans see atheism, as well as many eastern philosophies, as antithetical to this ethic. Whether or not these alternative philosophies are 'corrosive' to society is highly arguable (I would argue that they are not).
The only long term atheistic societies I know of are Buddhist (to the extent that you think of it as atheistic). They are nations that successfully avoided social or technical progress for centuries - until recently challenged by Western influence (still "Judeo-Christian" especially if you observe the elections here in the US)
If we're talking about China here, then Confucian ideals have a significant part to play along with Western influence. Confucian philosophy emphasizes social hierarchy, family values, work ethic, etc. It is the rigid/conservative philosophy of the east (in contrast to Taoism/Buddhism), and is a primary factor as to why the Chinese are open to an increasingly free market and other ambitions. But Confucian philosophy is still devoid of God/Gods. Also, whether this 'progress' in eastern nations is a good thing is also arguable.
I may get flamed for saying this but I often experience atheists as people like Hitchen - intelligent, articulate, acerbic - and often, drunk. I had to shake my head at people who cheered him on, avoiding Pascal's Wager, as he died (unlike John Von Neumann). WTF?
Despite some of the "New" Atheists reductionism, I'll have to hand it to Hitchens on avoiding Pascal's Wager. It's one of the most simplistic and absurd arguments in the history of philosophy.
And finally, there is evolution to consider: religion persists because it has value connected with our survival, like it or not. That's why it won't go away. That's also why the fall of the Soviet Union saw the re-emergence of Orthodox Churches over decades of atheist indoctrination.
I agree, religion probably has a strong evolutionary basis. And despite the protestations of the "New" Atheists, will never go away.
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What's your Myers-Briggs?
by Londo111 ini am infp.. some former witnesses in my hometown had a meetup last night...alas, only four of us.
but it turned out we had an infp(me), two infjs, and an enfp.
therefore, it turned out we were all idealists.
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mindseye
Interesting to see all of the INFPs on this thread. I test highly as an INFP, and yeah, I never liked field service either. Fortunately my parents weren't hardcore, so I didn't have to go often.
You don't like to argue, you INFP's
I wouldn't say that's universal. I generally avoid conflict, but if someone violates my principles I can get pretty confrontational. I also like a good debate, that is if everyone involved is cordial, sensible, and avoids ad hominem attacks. But yeah, for the most part INFPs are pretty laid back.
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Zen's Rant on Ayn Rand - intelligent responses appreciated
by Dogpatch incheck out http://youtu.be/_rtl0g851ic.
this is also at the freeminds channel at:.
http://www.youtube.com/user/freeminds?feature=guide.
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mindseye
Glander wrote: I would point out that it is "contemporary philosophers and academic departments" who are the core cheerleaders for Collectivism. Even the word "departments" in this context gives away the group think that these mental midgets cling to.
Glander: Any institution has a certain structure and amount of cultural conformity, and academia is no exception. But rigorous critique is the primary factor in academia. Both Rand's literary merit and philosophical arguments suffer greatly in any rigorous analysis.
Terry: I enjoy your posts, and I can tell from your writing you are a very rational person. Rand's arguments are mainly geared towards the highly rational, she is a champion of the left-brained. She eschews humanity's storehouse of metaphor, myth and poetry for a philosophy of strict, linear "reason". Yet even her "reason" is flawed because she indulges in the simple logical fallacy of the false dichotomy - that is when she proposes a false choice between the individual and the collective. It's a false notion that we have to exalt the Galileos, Einsteins and Steve Jobs at the expense of the everyman, and that we have to dispense with excellence when we choose measured altruism.
Rand's biggest mistep is the idea inherent in her idea of a "Utopia of Greed." It's a terribly misguided notion that if individuals follow their own egoistic 'ethic', and form some 'ideal' capitalist institutions, then some perfect state can be acheived on earth. Besides sounding scarily like an organization we are all familiar with, these ideas are tied up in utopian certainty and teleological thinking. Basically, teologogy stems from Aristotle's notion that everything, including humans, have a final cause or purpose (a comparison that Rand would not object to, to paraphrase her "in philosophy there are the three A's - Aristotle, Aquinas, and Ayn Rand"). The problem with teological thinking is that there is nothing besides our own ideas that show that we have some final cause and purpose, and such notions lead to all kinds of misguided ideas about the direction of history, from Marxism to Fundamentalism.
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Zen's Rant on Ayn Rand - intelligent responses appreciated
by Dogpatch incheck out http://youtu.be/_rtl0g851ic.
this is also at the freeminds channel at:.
http://www.youtube.com/user/freeminds?feature=guide.
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mindseye
I find it interesting how many ex-JWs are attracted to Rand's writings. I have a good friend who left the org and became attracted to her philosophy. I think there is something elemental in her philosophy that is very empowering to some ex-JWs. I find that since the Witnesses are a religion that supresses the individual to an unhealthy degree, those escaping that stranglehold are naturally attracted to a philosophy that pushes unbridled individualism.
Yet most contemporary philosophers and academic departments don't take Rand very seriously, and for good reason. She was a mediocre writer, and an even more facile philosopher. Her philosophy is based off of a simplistic ethical egoism that doesn't take into account the complexities of living in a society. She confuses ambition and responsibility with ego-driven self-interest, and her main argument poses a false dichotomy between the individual and the collective. And despite her comments in the interview quoted by botchtowersociety, the results of such ethical egoism can be seen in the worst excesses of American capitalism (see the recent Wall Street crisis for an example).
If one wants an empowering individualism without the simplistic social-political overtones, then go with the original: Nietzsche. Then graduate to 20th century existentialists like Sartre and Camus, who had more profound things to say about responsiblity, the individual, and his/her role in society.
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mindseye
I went from theist to agnostic to almost-atheist, and now I'm evolving some kind of mystical approach to theism. I came across some ideas lately that have showed me that much in the whole theism/atheism debate consists of false dichotomies. We've been fed a bunch of crap from ideologues from both sides. Process theology, apophatic theology, and a number of other approaches to God have blown me away. And we don't have to choose between the scientific worldview - the evidence for evolution - and a theistic view. The two can coexist and even compliment each other.