Posts by Maze

62

Real Jehovah's Witnesses (djeggnog, StandFirm, etc), I'm trying to understand you.

by pirata in

jw
friends

i'm an active jehovah's witness.

i've obviously lost my faith, that's why i don't feel bad posting here anymore.

i'd probably be disfellowshipped as a division causing, teaching, apostate, faster than you can say "maher-shalal-hash-baz" (isaiah 8:1), should it be found out that i was posting here and did not repent of the things i've said and stop participating in this forum.

Maze

StandFirm informed me he didn't like the forum and likely will not be posting here again. The Watchtower Society may encourage the wise use of a person's time, but I haven't noticed the discouragement of research outside the Society's publications because the Governing Body fears outside influences. That type of thinking is the thought process that Jehovah's Witnesses are under the umbrella of mind control. This is science fiction as there's no scientific theory, let alone, evidence for “mind control.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control

James Richardson observes that if the NRMs (new religious movements) had access to powerful brainwashing techniques, one would expect that NRMs would have high growth rates, yet in fact most have not had notable success in recruitment. Most adherents participate for only a short time, and the success in retaining members is limited. For this and other reasons, sociologists including David Bromley and Anson Shupe consider the idea that "cults" are brainwashing American youth to be "implausible." In addition to Bromley, Thomas Robbins, Dick Anthony, Eileen Barker, Newton Maloney, Massimo Introvigne, John Hall, Lorne Dawson, Anson Shupe, Gordon Melton, Marc Galanter, Saul Levine (amongst other scholars researching NRMs) have argued and established to the satisfaction of courts, of relevant professional associations and of scientific communities that there exists no scientific theory, generally accepted and based upon methodologically sound research, that supports the brainwashing theories as advanced by the anti-cult movement.

Some substitute mind control for loyalty to God or loyalty to a cause they disagree with. The reason the Watchtower Society discourages interacting with apostates is because of the effects of bad association, not because their “secrets” have any real merit.

Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 1 Corinthians 15:33

w93 8/1 p. 17 par. 10 Let No One Spoil Your Useful Habits

Modern computers have opened other avenues to bad association. Some commercial firms enable subscribers using a computer and a telephone to send a message to electronic bulletin boards; a person can thus post on the bulletin board a message that is open to all subscribers. This has led to so-called electronic debates on religious matters. A Christian might be drawn into such debates and may spend many hours with an apostate thinker who may have been disfellowshipped from the congregation. The direction at 2 John 9-11 underscores Paul’s fatherly counsel about avoiding bad associations.

Why do you attend meetings if you've "lost your faith."

21

Presbyterians Approve Ordination of Gay People

by Maze in

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html.

presbyterians approve ordination of gay people.

after 33 years of debate, the presbyterian church (u.s.a.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons.

Maze

I don't treat gay people any different than any one else. But homosexuality doesn't mix with Christianity.

21

Presbyterians Approve Ordination of Gay People

by Maze in

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html.

presbyterians approve ordination of gay people.

after 33 years of debate, the presbyterian church (u.s.a.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons.

Maze

possible-san,

Jehovah's Organization has some real problems because of erroneous stories an "insider" tells that can't be confirmed by anyone at the Watchtower Society's headquarters because they're all under hypnosis (aka "mind control). I don't think so.

There's nothing to support the conjecture from the apostate pinup doll "Barbara Anderson" and her cronies. Her lies and propaganda are there to feed the bitter appetites of apostates that thrive off gossip and slander related to Jehovah's Witnesses. They will pay money for her propaganda that beat's their former fellow associates.

w94 7/1 p. 11 par. 10 At Which Table Are You Feeding?

Food on the table of demons is poisonous. Consider, for example, the food dispensed by the evil slave class and the apostates. It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be, for the apostates have stopped feeding at Jehovah's table. As a result, whatever they had developed of the new personality is gone. What motivates them is, not holy spirit, but vitriolic bitterness. They are obsessed with only one aim-beating their former fellow slaves, as Jesus foretold.-Matthew 24:48, 49.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't allow homosexuals to be ordained as ministers and elders and never will. Before it's all over, Babylon the Great will completely dissolve the structure of her religious foundation and that will be the end of her.

And he says to me: "The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. Revelation 17:15-17

182

Conspiracy theorists

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

some here like to perpetuate the idea that there is a hidden group lurking in the shadows playing democrats and republicans against each other for their own benefit... or that a new world order is about to annihilate herds of common men to stay in power.. please name one specific living person who is a member of this elite group..

Maze

There are different types of conspiracy theorists:

Christian conspiracy theorists

http://www.cuttingedge.org/

Socialist conspiracy theorists

http://www.wsws.org/

World Socialist Web Site

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/bush-j31.shtml

State of the Union speech: Bush declares war on the world

The State of the Union speech given by George W. Bush Tuesday night was among the most menacing and belligerent in American history. The US president outlined a program of limitless and perpetual warfare, on every continent, and against any regime that stands in the way of the rapacious American ruling class.

Bush threatened to attack Iran, Iraq and North Korea-mentioning the three countries by name. Despite his apocalyptic warnings about "thousands of dangerous killers, schooled in the methods of murder, often supported by outlaw regimes," these countries had nothing to do with the September 11 terrorist attacks, a fact acknowledged even by the US government.

Despite Bush's attempt to resurrect the rhetoric of World War II in his reference to the "axis of evil," it is the US government and Bush himself who are following in the footsteps of the Nazis. One would have to go back to the diatribes of Adolf Hitler to find comparable bellicosity in the public declarations of a major world power, and comparable cynicism in the lies and provocations employed as justifications for military aggression.

A program of world conquest

The comparison is an apt one, because like Hitler and the Nazis, American militarism has embarked on a campaign of world conquest and world domination. The State of the Union speech was a declaration of the unbridled appetites of the military and of the most ruthless, corrupt and criminal sections of the American ruling elite, who find their direct representative in George W. Bush.

Like Hitler, Bush presents an upside-down view of the world in which small and weak states are mortal threats to the most powerful and heavily armed. In 1938-39, Hitler demonized first Czechoslovakia and then Poland as threats to the national security of Germany, before invading and laying waste to each. In 2002, Bush targets North Korea, Iran and Iraq, declaring, "The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons."

There's also organizations conspiracy theorists center their theories around.

http://www.watchtower21.org/2011/02/will-humanity-bring-about-new-world.html

Will humanity bring about a New World Order through secret societies?

A New World Order: Thoughts and Perspectives from the Illuminati Manifesto

By now, many, if not most of you, have heard various politicians and media figures speak of a New World Order. What exactly does this mean? What kind of order is it that they speak of? Who is going to implement this New World Order? How will it be implemented? What types of people understand or subscribe to the New World Order? Will it be established by some dishonest Christian conspiracy theorists, con artists who are busy spitting out books on all sorts of theories with the assumption that they have a large audience filled with gullible and naive people ready to make them rich and famous? The real issues have never been clearly defined by those who speak out concerning a New World Order; the real issues are what is and who is this New World Order?

What the New World Order entails, among other things, are the many issues that would be considered taboo in today's day and age. However, like all great idealists, philosophers, and scientists,' proponents of the New World Order, namely The Illuminati Order, are pioneers in the field of human and social responsibility. We are providing practical and logical solutions to the many issues and questions authoritative figures in high positions would not dare speak of in public for fear of loosing their positions and/or their reputations.

Throughout the ages, however, a seed of enlightenment has been planted and nourished by what most people refer to as radicals. A new philosophy took hold and matured over the centuries. It has been safeguarded by various secret societies such as Freemasonry, The Illuminati, and other similar organizations. This philosophy is the philosophy of realism, of practical application to problems that face mankind. This philosophy is known as Objectivism. Although it has been hijacked by Randists (people who claim and believe that Ayn Rand was the inventor or originator of this philosophy) it is only the ignorant and poorly educated in the field of philosophy and literature that prescribe to such belief. Unfortunately, this is the case with most Objectivists. There are two types of people who claim Rand as the originator or founder of Objectivism.

Objectivism is a collection of original thoughts of many individuals over the centuries. People who have books to sell and big salaries to maintain (atlassociety.org/: parasites and aynrand.org: parasites) are the idiots, liars, cowards, and deceivers who still maintain that Objectivism was founded or originated by Ayn Rand. Those dumb enough to believe such nonsense should read John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers, Pope, Cicero, Branden, Nietzsche, Aristotle, and a multitude of other authors and philosophers; there are too many to list here.

61

JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions

by Retrovirus in

in the thread about the wt in russia, maze made the assertions below.. .

jehovah's witnesses as an organization acts as a protection to the family unit.

andthe lie that jehovah's witnesses ruin families is apostate poison.. to aviod derailing that thread, i ask maze to defend them here.. my experience is that the jw religion destroyed my brothers' marriage.

Maze

That also applies to marriages outside of the Catholic church, the many Protestant churches, Jewish Synagogues, Mosques, Las Vegas wedding chapels, Rev. Moon's mass weddings, etc. A person also could be divorced, and then leave the Watchtower organization. Indeed, their "scriptural divorce" stance means that a divorced person may be pushed out (DF or DA) for divorcing without so-called scriptural grounds. Applying logic similar to yours, these should count as JW divorces--not as divorces for their new religious affiliation (or lack thereof). Your response is a red herring, a diversion from the point at hand, your assertion that "The lie that Jehovah's Witnesses ruin families is apostate poison."

For the most part, the membership of Christendom's Churches (or Islam or Orthodox Judaism) is traditional while the membership of Jehovah's Organization is (for the most part) the result of a conversion to a new religious movement. No one gets disfellowshipped for divorcing on unscriptural grounds. They would have to remarry.

However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 5:32

There's only on organization on the planet that puts into practice Jesus' words at Matthew 5:32. This acts as a strengthening aid to the marriage arrangement.

61

JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions

by Retrovirus in

in the thread about the wt in russia, maze made the assertions below.. .

jehovah's witnesses as an organization acts as a protection to the family unit.

andthe lie that jehovah's witnesses ruin families is apostate poison.. to aviod derailing that thread, i ask maze to defend them here.. my experience is that the jw religion destroyed my brothers' marriage.

Maze

That is not the case, as taught in every introductory class on statistics.

If there are 1.178 million witnesses in a population of 310 million, 0.38% are witnesses and 99.62% are not. A random selection of 35,000 persons including no witnesses, as you suggest, occurs with probability of 0.9962^35000 = 1.35x10^-58, about one chance in 7,430,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. That's a lot of zeros; compared to those odds buying one lottery ticket is a sure thing!

In fact, the Pew survey included 215 Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their survey methodology is sound, and they published that as well as the questions and the results for all the world to see. Their report shows witnesses are nearly average in their marriage and divorce/separation rate, while being much lower than average for "living with a partner" (outside of marriage).

If you're looking for the religion with the best track record for marrying and staying married, the verdict is clear: Hindus. According to Pew, they are the most likely to be married, and the least likely to divorce or live as non marital partners--by considerable margins in every case.

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf

The questionnaire is as follows.

Question: Are you currently married, living with a partner, divorced, separated, widowed or have you never been married?

This doesn't necessarily take into account marriages formed in Jehovah's Organization. A person could have been divorced prior to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses. 215 Jehovah’s Witnesses out of 7 million isn't accurate.

21

Presbyterians Approve Ordination of Gay People

by Maze in

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html.

presbyterians approve ordination of gay people.

after 33 years of debate, the presbyterian church (u.s.a.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons.

Maze

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html

Presbyterians Approve Ordination of Gay People

After 33 years of debate, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons.

If thier "constitution" isn't the Bible what is it?

Babylon the Great is falling...

42

Are YOU Drastically Different Since Leaving The Witnesses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

or are you pretty much the same, as a person?.

do you still worry about doing everything just so?.

do you still suffer from depression and angst?.

Maze

Have you found your soul?

(Matthew 10:39) . . .He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.

61

JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions

by Retrovirus in

in the thread about the wt in russia, maze made the assertions below.. .

jehovah's witnesses as an organization acts as a protection to the family unit.

andthe lie that jehovah's witnesses ruin families is apostate poison.. to aviod derailing that thread, i ask maze to defend them here.. my experience is that the jw religion destroyed my brothers' marriage.

Maze

yeah right MaZO your known as a troll on a few forums going under different names, a bit of a nutter actually.

What forums? Fresia and Black Sheep chime in with a bunch of off-topic, unrelated gibberish and accuse me of being a "troll." Too funny... Trolls, like stalkers are always oblivious to their anti-social behavior. It may help to read about your condition. You can start with wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_Internet

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

61

JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions

by Retrovirus in

in the thread about the wt in russia, maze made the assertions below.. .

jehovah's witnesses as an organization acts as a protection to the family unit.

andthe lie that jehovah's witnesses ruin families is apostate poison.. to aviod derailing that thread, i ask maze to defend them here.. my experience is that the jw religion destroyed my brothers' marriage.

Maze

The proof: "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey 2008" by The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life surveyed 35,000 people and presents findings on divorce/separation rates. (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports as at April 20 2008) The following graph from the report shows the Witness rate of 14% was slightly above the U.S. average of 12%.

The Pew Forum regularly publishes information on their website, open for everyone to review AND they publish HOW they got that information as well. They are a legitimate, scientific source and even the WTBTS uses them sometimes to show that JW's are the fastest growing religion (although they have the lowest retention rate).

There's over 310 million people in the United States. There's 1,178,349 Witnesses in the United States. Interviewing 35,000 random people doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Statistically, it's highly unlikely one of Jehovah's Witnesses was even contacted.

The vast majority of divorces in Jehovah's Organization (where both marriage partners are Jehovah's Witnesses) fall into two categories.

1. A spouse turns their back on Jehovah and their family out of selfish motives.

2. Young persons raised as Jehovah's Witnesses ignore counsel in the Bible and Bible based publications and get married before they are mature enough to shoulder the responsibilities of marriage.

yp chap. 30 p. 236 Am I Ready for Marriage?

Why do so many young marriages fail? The answer to this may have a strong bearing on determining whether you are ready for marriage or not.

In thirty years of observations, I can count the number of divorces on one hand where it involved mature individuals that remained in Jehovah's Organization.

You do know that most religions don't mind that children leave their church when they are old enough. In the US and the EU, children have the RIGHT to choose their own religion, the WTBTS curtails that right by placing heavy sanctions upon any display of disloyalty to the organization. I don't know of any atheist (there might be a few but the vast majority) that would not allow their children to go to a religious service. Most interested parents do encourage a cultural experience of several religions and if the child finds something that they want, very few parents would get in the way of that.

No, not all parents inculcate multiculturalism in their children. Many people are Objectivists:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10249

Multiculturalism's War on Education

It is a gross misconception to view multiculturalism as an effort to enrich education. By reshaping the curriculum, the purveyors of "diversity" in the classroom calculatedly seek to prevent students from grasping the objective value to human life of Western culture--a culture whose magnificent achievements have brought man from mud huts to moon landings.

Multiculturalism is no boon to education, but an agent of anti-Western ideology.

A question for you: do you think it is morally correct to allow children to be baptized and let them agree verbally to give up their rights to freedom of religion at an age that they are highly influenced and susceptible to do whatever it is that they need to do to be accepted by peers, parents and people in authority? Those kids are having sex, babies, smoke and do drugs just to belong or please, why is locking in their religion until they either die or get rejected by everybody they know acceptable just to belong or please?

A person should get baptized when they're mature enough to know right from wrong.