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outsmartthesystem
JoinedPosts by outsmartthesystem
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21
My 1-Year Anniversary as a JWN Member
by dontplaceliterature in...is today.
it's been a wild 12 months.
i went back to look at my introduction post, and my how things have changed!
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294
Evil Spirits
by LizLA indoes anyone on this forum have knowledge about casting out demons or evil spirits?
there's at least two of them that have been harrasing me even before i was a jw.
i recently attended a deliverance church to find some help but it was apparent that the holy spirit was missing from that church.
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outsmartthesystem
I am not saying there are....or there aren't evil spirits......but THIS line of reasoning (or lack thereof) is maddening:
"the point is, just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it's not still out there. and until YOU can prove it doesn't exist, YOU look foolish for saying it doesn't."
This is the same type of reasoning that the Watchtower uses to try to refute 587BC as the date Jerusalem fell. In fact, here is the quote from the appendix of the "Let Your Kingdom Come" book:
"Or, even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period."
The Watchtower is using something that has never been found as the basis for refuting the validity of something that DOES exist! What they are saying is "you cannot prove that artifacts showing OUR chronology to be correct don't exist somehow, someway, somewhere. Maybe they are buried a mile beneath the earth's surface. Maybe aliens came and stole all the proof. Who knows? The point is.....you cannot PROVE that NOTHING supporting our methodology will EVER be found....therefore.....WE ARE CORRECT"
It is this kind of reasoning that allows a human being to believe whatever it is they want to believe. Very few things in life can actually be PROVEN. Can I PROVE that Bigfoot does not exist? Well.....by my reasoning yes. There is no true evidence (bones, live capture, etc) to support that he lives in the woods in Canada. Yet if I put a different spin on it....I can say that there COULD be a mass of undiscovered evidence out there supporting his existence.....or that just because YOU cannot see him does not mean he doesn't exist.......therefore keeping alive the possibility that he does exist
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294
Evil Spirits
by LizLA indoes anyone on this forum have knowledge about casting out demons or evil spirits?
there's at least two of them that have been harrasing me even before i was a jw.
i recently attended a deliverance church to find some help but it was apparent that the holy spirit was missing from that church.
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outsmartthesystem
I have not read all the posts yet.....but does anyone else get the feeling like this entire thread was nothing but an infomercial to tout this product?
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Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.
by sd-7 in(zechariah 7:1-5) 7 furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of darius the king the word of jehovah occurred to zechariah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in chis'lev.
2 and beth'el proceeded to send share'zer and re'gem-mel'ech and his men to soften the face of jehovah, 3 saying to the priests who belonged to the house of jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: shall i weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way i have done these o how many years?
4 and the word of jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: 5 say to all the people of the land and to the priests, when you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?
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outsmartthesystem
I forget where I read it....but I am pretty sure the society's "answer" is that they fasted for 70 years from 607 til 537 and then "evidently" continued to fast an additional 20 years....with no one really knowing why.
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evolution question
by outsmartthesystem init has taken me almost 2 years to get to the bottom of the watchtower society rabbit hole.
being fully convinced that i was duped....i am still a little ashamed of myself for being so narrow minded.
i have vowed never to close off my mind like that again.
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outsmartthesystem
It didn't freak me out.....but I quit trying to follow.
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The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet
by The Quiet One inregarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.
but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.
that would clearly have been a mistake.
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outsmartthesystem
The quiet one - Do you understand my previous post? Do you understand the society can push dates back (i.e. 1874 to 1914).....interpretations can change.....definitions can be amended (i.e. a real generation vs an overlapping one) etc etc. So long as these things continue to happen, the society can continue to claim that they never falsely prophesied. So long as the generation definition continues to morph each time the old definition fails....they will simply say that it is new light. By your reckoning....the society will have to close up shop and disband the religion before you will admit that they have prophesied falsely.
When 1994 came and went.....the promise they made on behalf of God failed. But they released a new explanation and passed the failure off as "new light". Recently that explanation changed again into what we now have as "overlapping generations". 50-70 years from now when all the babies that were alive at the tail end of the lives of those of the 1914 generation start to die off.......you know it....I know it and everyone else knows it......the society WILL come up with a new explanation as to what constitutes a "generation". They will never let an old explanation die because that would be admission of failure. As long as they keep coming up with new explanations/interpretations....they can continue to say the light is getting brighter.....while claiming that the old prophecy technically didn't fail. If you choose to bury your head in the sand and accept this.....then have fun serving the borg for the rest of your life.
"And the WT doesn't claim that they are infallible/inspired prophets at all, merely that they are guided by Gods spirit, and that they may be wrong when making an interpretation of prophecy"
If they are not infallible then they have no right to disfellowship others for disagreeing with their mandates and interpretations. Consider this. What if you were giving a talk on stage in 1988 and you said, "everyone needs to temper their expectations about the end of this system of things coming within the lifetime of those that saw the events of 1914 unfold. The faithful slave is not infallable or inspired and they may very well be wrong. In fact, I am positive that when Jesus spoke of "that generation" he was actually referring to overlapping generations......meaning the end would come within the lifetime of those whose lives overlapped with the ones that saw the events of 1914." ?????? Guess what? You wouldn't be giving talks anymore. You'd be having a meeting with the elders about not accepting the teachings of the faithful slave. If you continued to press the issue....insisting that the slave may be wrong in their "generation" interpretation.....you'd be subject to disfellowshipping.
What right would they have to disfellowship you if they have, are and will be wrong? Why is it ok for them to enforce teachings that prove to be wrong in the future? Is it really God's will that you accept teachings that are incorrect? They have right to disfellowship you for refusing to believe something that is incorrect? God is directing this?
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179
The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet
by The Quiet One inregarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.
but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.
that would clearly have been a mistake.
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outsmartthesystem
"The generation that saw 1914, taking into account the new understanding of an overlapping generation being a better interpretation, hasn't passed away yet. If it does, then the WT will have been proven to be a false prophet."
To the OP - This is a typical rhetorical fallacy. The society uses "increased light" - which...by the way (Proverbs 4:18)....is a scripture taken grossly out of context that allows them to make whatever interpretations and predictions they want to, knowing they can always change it again later if they want to......as a safety net for false teachings.
With the use of Proverbs 4:18, the society has, does and will change teachings on a whim and say that "new light has been shed on the matter". This explanation prevents them from ever having to own up to past false falsehoods. Seriously, try to be objective here. Think about what you wrote (that I quoted) above. Their interpretation of what constitutes a generation (70 to 80 years) and how it relates to the year 1914 FAILED. It wasn't until AFTER the failure that they re-worked their definition.....and then another 15 years after that, that we ended up with the "overlapping generation" definition. The "overlapping generation" explanation was the result of the FAILURE of their previous explanation.
Do you really think that 50 years from now.....when the overlapping generation explanation proves to be false.....that will be it? Do you really think the society will say "well.....we were wrong. Darn it!" Be reasonable! There will be a brand new explanation that makes the current understanding "old light". And all the witnesses will go on believing the new understanding while echoing your sentiments.....saying "see? it wasn't a failed prophecy....it was increased light!!!!! Aren't we thankful for Jehovah's progressive light?" You see.....there will always be a new explanation to take the place of the immediate past one that failed. As such......there will never be an admission to prophecy failure.
If the society can chalk past failures of their predictions up to old light.......then can't anyone?
I once predicted that Hillary Clinton would become President 2008. As it turns out....she didn't. But was I wrong? No! The statistics I had and the information I was relying on was "old light". The old light caused me to have "premature expectations". New light was quickly shed and Obama was given the democratic nomination. Ever thankful for increasing light....I revised my estimation and said that Barack Obama would be president. And Look! I was right! It is clear that Jehovah directed it.
If I use the same reasoning that you allow the society to use.....then I've never been wrong in my life. I've just had a few "unrealized expectations" that were cleared up once "new light" was shed on the matter.
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rec'd a letter in the mail (similar to Shaky Ground's text)
by outsmartthesystem inthis one was from an elder's wife.
she has been quite ill for some time.
the sad thing is, i do like her.
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outsmartthesystem
"To the OP, it seems weird that you going back to the hall would be her dying wish"
She didn't exactly SAY that. She mentioned that she fears she may not have much time left.....and that she sure wishes she could see me back at the KH as the spiritual head of my house. I interpret that as "I am dying....and it would sure mean a lot to me if I could witness you turn it around and get back towing the line before I go".
And no, I probably will not return her letter.
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rec'd a letter in the mail (similar to Shaky Ground's text)
by outsmartthesystem inthis one was from an elder's wife.
she has been quite ill for some time.
the sad thing is, i do like her.
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outsmartthesystem
"According to her church, if you both die before Armageddon, you will both end up in Paradise, along with Hitler and every dead Pope.
I don't know how to tell her that nicely."
I agree with Serenity. I was under the impression that all people that died before armageddon would be resurrected......except those that were evil beyond all imagination. (of course no scripture to back this up)
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rec'd a letter in the mail (similar to Shaky Ground's text)
by outsmartthesystem inthis one was from an elder's wife.
she has been quite ill for some time.
the sad thing is, i do like her.
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outsmartthesystem
"Hate to burst a bubble, but perhaps she is on the "infirmed pioneer" list, and this letter is a way for her to get hours?"
But I am still theoretically a baptized witness. Although inactive. She can't count that as "time" can she?