Posts by outsmartthesystem

"also add that you know now that it is possible that you may have been led astray and her 'fresh eyes' might bring discernment. .....(this way she gets exposed to your findings via direct research articles etc and yall get to calmly and rationally discuss the merits of such and what should and shouldn't go into the letter."

Believe it or not.....I tried that. She has seen every bit if research I've put into the 607BC thing. Her only response is "I still think you're wrong."

Go very slowly .......make sure she knows exactly what we believe and when we started believing it (include previous versions and dates changed- better yet have copies of the WT publications showing the changes) about whatever topic yall are approaching.

if questioning is not bad she can join you in your search.

She believes that the devil is a deceiver.....continually making himself into "an angel of light". Therefore she most certainly will not join me in my search because that is exactly how Satan tricks people into becoming apostates.

It sounds like she no longer wants to be married.

She's teetering on the edge. She views herself as a wonderful christian who has displayed immense long suffering for putting up with me thus far already.

Perhaps their exit will also be convincing to your wife

I wish. Unfortunately when she finds out....she'll think we've all been in cahoots together to plan this. She doesn't get along real well with my family....and she'll view this as the reason why. She'll say "THAT'S why. The truth was never in their hearts".

She won't do that. She is perfectly happy with her head in the sand. When I offer to research with her from our very own literature to see what was being taught and when it was being taught she refuses to join me. Her response is "I already know all of it so there's no point." Even if I play dumb and ask her to help me understand what she knows because obviously I have a different understanding than she does....she simply says "No. Call the elders". In regard to 1914, she said she remembers reading a very old pre-1914 WT in which Russell predicted that WW1 would begin in 1914. I implored her to help me find that article. She got angry and refused. That's when she told me "I don't owe you anything". She told me to go find it myself. She won't do intensive research because she knows she'll find things she can't explain.

She sounds like a typical desperate, defensive, frustrated, fearful and fully indoctrinated Sister scared out of her mind and looking at him as if he is possibly demon possessed....she still loves him or she would have turned him into the Elders, packed and moved out to her father's house.

I think you are exactly right. For now anyways

She will deny it again... then ask her to write the letter on her name... or that you would talk to the elder as if she has the same questions...

She has already suggested this. She offered to write a letter herself asking my questions to prove to me that "the elders aren't out to get anyone". She truly believes they are there to help and are guided by God. And that once they begin speaking I'll see the light. She has no idea what happens when a person doesn't accept politician type non-answers.

45

Best British Bands

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

on a lighter note......what do you think?

here's my top ten.

1) beatles.

outsmartthesystem

Dammit Cedars. You can't do that. If we open it up to Ireland.....where do we end it?

And now I'm going to have to throw in a new wrinkle (since I am a child of the 80's) - Def Leppard

14

Cult Life - Disposable Relationships

by cog_survivor in

jw
friends

i've been reading a lot of the posts and agonizing with/for folks who are trying to fade or come out of the wtbs.

there seems to be this recurring theme of family still in, trying to keep from losing them.. this seems almost universal no matter the group.

there is no middle ground whatsoever.

outsmartthesystem

With JWs, loyalty to the cult is the # priority. The belief is that you cannot serve God WITHOUT the organization therefore putting loyalty to anyone OTHER than the organization first is tantamount to putting that person before God.

Therefore for a truly indoctrinated person.....it does not matter how strong their relationship is with you prior to your fade. They must cut you off. They must show that they are putting God first.

65

need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

so here's the latest in my pathetic saga.

i've tried to fly under the radar for the past year, but it isn't working so well.

i've learned not to engage my wife in debates but rather to ask questions.

outsmartthesystem

LG - I get what you're saying. She's thrown down the gauntlet. I quit going to meetings over a year ago. I've successfully faded. But my children are being brought up to be Watchtower zombies. If it weren't for them I'd just continue my fade. The gauntlet was thrown down in that she issued a challenge. Basically it was put up or shut up. If I don't send my findings to Bethel or to the elders then I am admitting that I am wrong and a slacker and a bad person that only wishes to disrupt her spirituality. If I don't have the balls to present what I've found to the elders then in her eyes I am admitting that I am wrong. And along with that....I had better not do anything to disrupt her raising them to be JWs. (since I have already admitted that I am wrong) That includes teaching them anything that contradicts WT theology.

I have 2 choices - 1) don't rock the boat.....shut up and watch my children grow up trapped in a cult.....and forever knowing that my wife thinks I am a spineless snake or 2) meet her challenge and find out what happens.

I don't know what to do. You're right.....number two may very well lead to divorce. But I am also not the type of man that can readily accept number 1. (although I've been doing it for over a year now)

29

This is harder than I thought...

by SophieG in

jw
friends

ok....i am trying to go inactive to fade.

however all my family is in, except for one relative.

i cannot move away.

outsmartthesystem

"But now that I am awake and I know TTAT, the lingo is driving me nuts."

Amen to that. It drives me nuts to even be around people (witnesses) I used to get along with. Their organization worship makes me want to puke.

45

Best British Bands

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

on a lighter note......what do you think?

here's my top ten.

1) beatles.

outsmartthesystem

On a lighter note......what do YOU think? Here's my top ten

1) Beatles

2) Led Zeppelin

3) Elton John

4) Queen

5) Rolling Stones

6) The Who

7) Pink Floyd

8) Fleetwood Mac

9) Duran Duran

10) The cure

65

need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

so here's the latest in my pathetic saga.

i've tried to fly under the radar for the past year, but it isn't working so well.

i've learned not to engage my wife in debates but rather to ask questions.

outsmartthesystem

Thanks for the comments thus far. The thing is......I'm in a different place mentally than I was a year ago. A year ago I was content to fly under the radar and play the system (hence my moniker). I am no longer afraid of being DFd. I have my family's backing. And I think it might serve to wake my kids up to the truth about the harshness of this religion as they grow older.

Then again.....I've read the book "Mistakes were made but not by me". Perhaps I am simply self justifying what I feel in my heart is an inevitable conclusion.

65

need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

so here's the latest in my pathetic saga.

i've tried to fly under the radar for the past year, but it isn't working so well.

i've learned not to engage my wife in debates but rather to ask questions.

outsmartthesystem

So here's the latest in my pathetic saga. I've tried to fly under the radar for the past year, but it isn't working so well. I've learned not to engage my wife in debates but rather to ask questions. But no matter what thought provoking question is asked, her response is "I won't answer that. I don't owe you anything. You won't talk to the elders and you won't send a letter to Bethel so it is clear that you know you are wrong and are only trying to ruin my faith".

And planting "thinking" seeds in my oldest child's head isn't working either because she has been turned into a little informant. My 5 year old is being turned into a JW psycho. What 5 year old wants to listen to kingdom melodies? What 5 year old wants to quit playing house so she can pretend she is at the meeting instead?

I do have some good news though. I have found out over the past 3 months by having my sister's family visit.....and then later by going to visit my mom......that mom, my sister, my nephew and nieces and my BIL (sister's hubby) are ALL in the same boat as me. It all started by my sister noticing my "collection of books" on my bookshelf at home. Several discussions later, I've learned that the majority of my immediate blood family is making their exodus from this religion too! The reason I say this is to let you know that finally, I do have some support.

I think I have reached the point where I must take a stand. I am not a passive personality. Fading just isn't in my nature. My wife has told me that she will only take me seriously if I take the plunge and write to NY or talk to an elder. My kids are being taught to worship the organization and disregard their father. How long do I let the burning inside me go? If I were to do this......here is how I would do it:

I would first tell my wife that I am finally mailing to Bethel all of my research I've done on 607BC (I would focus on that topic), and the corresponding 84 questions I've developed. Then I'll tell her that they won't answer any of my questions. In fact, they won't even respond (she thinks they'll respond in writing with biblical answers to all questions). I'll tell her that they will send a letter to our local body of elders and the COBE will assign two unqualified local elders who know nothing of the information that I've sent to NY to come talk to me. When I ask to see a copy of the letter that was sent to them regarding me......they will decline to give it to me. I think that's a pretty good start as to how it will unfold.

When the elders sit down to talk I will offer them a copy of what I sent to NY. They will decline. They will already have in hand several society based publications on the matter. (all of which I have thoroughly studied and have reponses and questions to) They will offer to go over them with me. I will say ok.....and we'll start. Paragraph by paragraph I will then open up my research book and respond to each point they try to make with the very same question that I sent to Bethel. They will be unable to answer each question and they will quickly go on the defensive. Again, I would make sure to predict all these things ahead of time. I think one of two things will happen.

1) the elders will find a way to not DF me. Believe it or not....they seem to like me. It is common knowledge around here that I am "critical of the society". If they wanted me gone they'd have found a way by now. But at least I can prove to my wife that they cannot answer these questions. Her whole beef with me is that she thinks I am trying to ruin her faith. She thinks that since she is just a lowly woman, she cannot answer the questions I have....but since the elders are filled with holy spirit....they'll be able to. I am hopeful that she'll be shocked when she sees they cannot. 2) I will get the boot. I no longer hang out with any local witnesses so from a social standpoint (for me) it isn't a big deal. My family supports me so I have that too. I've tried to explain to her that she doesn't grasp how much such a decision would affect HER. For instance, she had a small congragation get together at our house. I attended and cooked for everyone. That won't happen anymore. Children from the KH come over to our house quite often and spend the night. That won't happen anymore. We can't meet other families for lunch. Etc. I am hopeful that if I were to get DFd she would see first hand what an evil and controlling device the DFing tag really is. Then again, it may just make her hate me and want to get away

For me, the best part of situation 2 is that of the position her father will be in. Remember, she loves her father more than any other human being on this planet, including me. 30 years ago, her dad "found the truth". When he did, his father in law (my wife's grandpa) treated him like shit. He did so because it was his son in law that ruined the family. No more family Christmas. No more Thanksgiving. Not only that, but he had to sit by and watch as his daughter was indoctrinated into a cult. Well, my wife grew up and noticed how her grandpa treated her dad. Of course her dad brushed it off as persecution and that helped indoctrinate my wife even more. But the way he was treated by her grandpa really bothered her. To the point where she had a talk with him (grandpa) and told him how awful it was to see him treat her father as though he was dead. He has since opened up a bit and now at least treats my wife's father with a measure of dignity.

THAT is what will be good. My father in law is an organizational disciple through and through. If I am DFd I have 100% confidence that he will never say another word to me. He will treat me as though I am dead. I am hopeful that I would be able to reason with her.....or at the very least MY children as they grow up. I am hopeful that I would be able to show them that the way my wife's grandpa treated her dad is the exact same way that HE treats ME. All because a person either accepted or did not accept a particular religion. All in all, my hope would be that my children would see the inhumane way that JWs treat me and realize that it is a cult as they get older. My hope would be that my children would be able to see the double standards and hypocritical behavior.

So.....what do you think? Should I put the crack pipe away? Thus far I've taken the majority's advice and laid low

On another note. Regardless of the above, I am thinking about making one more wave with my wife. I am thinking about insisting that my kids make friends with kids that are not at the kingdom hall. I want to do this because I realize that growing up with friends that are ONLY in the KH makes the indoctrination and control that much stronger. For a teenager, even if they begin to see the real truth.....the social aspect of realizing that they will be starting over with all new friends may in and of itself be enough to keep them in the borg. This will go over like a turd in the punchbowl with my wife.....but it is a battle I think that needs to be both fought and won. thoughts?

63

Email from my grandmother yesterday.

by elder-schmelder in

here is an email that my grandmother sent me yesterday.. .

shawn, it's very difficult & sad to come to this decision, but because of your attitude towards the truth & us personally (thinking that we are stupid) we're going to treat you as a disfellowshipped person from now on.

actually, you're worse than them because usually they know they have not kept their oath to jehovah & don't speak abusively of the organization and don't turn apostate.

outsmartthesystem

Grandma, it is difficult for me to accept your treatment, but you must do what you must do. Please know that my love for you is not conditional like yours is. I too would suggest that you do some research on cults. What characteristics to look for......how they operate.....and how they control their followers. I too would suggest reviewing the attributes that make up the Christ like personality. I am pretty sure that monetary threats aren't included. The society will be greatful for my share of the will. Between the $16million worth of settlements in 2007, the Candace Conti case, and the future cases that will arise.....they will need to bolster their pedophile defense fund. I am also sure that there will be thousands that will appreciate the many mistranslated bibles and scholastically dishonest publications that will be printed as well.