Posts by Oroborus21

62

Online love

by StinkyPantz in

jw
friends

do you think it's possible to fall in love with someone online?

assuming they give you a real picture of themselves and are honest about themselves.. is it possible to love this person before you meet them?

i'm not talking about the kind of love you share with your friends, i'm talking the real deal.

Oroborus21

The Net is now just another way to meet people. In the future there won't be any stigma at all attached to couples who first met online.

to answer your question I believe the answer is NO. That is you specifically said if the real deal is possible prior to meeting in person. The basic premise I assume is that a person must actually KNOW someone before they can LOVE them.

I believe that you cannot really LOVE someone whom you have never met in person. Without the non-Net communication and interaction, your perspective is tinted and skewed, thus while I do believe a person can FEEL like they are truly in love (which is true of any fantasy attachment) I submit that it is NOT the real thing.

I further submit that even after meeting the "true love" one may feel is not really true until some period of time of experience with that person and may not even be many years of decades--this depends on the complexity of the individuals involved--and for some people they never fully know the other person. Most people are continuously learning and evolving (not in the evolutionary sense) all of their lives so it may be true that we never ever fully know someone else (or even ourselves?!) but I think some point is reached where we can comfortably believe that True Love exists and is based on an indepth knowledge of the other person.

NOw of course as some have pointed out on this thread, it IS possible to meet online and to marry and in fact I have personal experience in this as my fiancee and I met first online. But that really was not your question and obviously MARRIAGE does not equal TRUE LOVE, i.e the "real deal".

--Eduardo

8

World Cup / Sporting Gaff's..

by Englishman in

jw
friends

world cup latest gaff's: .

john motson, bbc: "just look at all the thousands and thousands of brazil shirts around the ground.

nothing but a sea of yellow, a real kaleidoscope of colour".

Oroborus21

not a big soccer fan but jumping on the bandwagon...Go USA!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLl!!!!!!!!!!!!

--Eduardo

19

confirm your apostasy.....

by professor in

jw
friends

...and apparently get the t-shirt too!

http://cafepress.com/apostate .

edited by - professor on 19 june 2002 10:54:19.

Oroborus21

I laughed when I saw the photo because I just imagined the reaction of Witnesses, especially if they knew/know you, and the look on their faces and insuing whispering would be pretty hilarious. BUT...

upon more careful review of the product it is an entirely anti-christian thing and the back of that particular tee says something like: ; "Your Lord is NOT my shephard because I am not a sheep".....

perhaps some out there feel that way, but I think that most people that admit to being "apostate" (or at least do not object too ;strenuously when others refer to them as such) would claim not to be anti-Christ and so would not desire to wear such apparel.

(two-cents)

--Eduardo

19

what has most influence on JW's?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

what or who , do you believe has the most influence on how jw's lead their lives?.

is it the watchtower mags, meetings, circuit overseers , governing body,peers,or something else?.

i was trying to think about what most influenced me and i think it is the group pressure we recieve in the org that pushes us most to do things.

Oroborus21

Howdy,

I don't think broad generalizations can be drawn. One person may be heavily influenced by peer pressure and another may not be influenced at all by the same pressure. With each person you are going to get a different response.

Like most things the answer is complicated and multi-faceted and defies distillation to just one thing.

Having said that, I think that in JW life and in non-JW life the largest influence upon us are our close associates and family members (we love and respect). This, hopefully, is often our parents, but too often not. Very often it is that one friend that we respect and admire that influences us the most.

For some their best friend may have been a "gung ho" Witness (or their family highly active, etc.) and this led them to seek to behave in the same way.

Likewise, if the Bible or Watchtower or talk from the platform said one thing but the person(s) closest to us were doing something different, it was these persons that probably had the bigger influence on our conduct and choices rather than that material.

In a broader sense this extends to a generalized peer pressure and also to the "examples" or experiences we witnessed and underwent.

Running in a tie or a close second for largest influence is going to be our "circumstances." I mean this in terms of familial life, economic situation, cultural background etc. For example:

Speaking for myself it was growing up very poor, including not having much or anything to eat at times, being hispanic and a Witness, being the last of 7 children, etc. etc.

It was these things that I believed greatly influenced me to excel in whatever I tried to do, to pursue higher education, also it perhaps, explains why although I would not describe myself as materialistic I greatly desire to avoid ever being in such a destitute situation again (starving-student-stage excluded), and further explains my ambitious nature and fiercely independent character, etc.

Having said all of that, while I acknowledge that we can be influenced by outside sources and that in the Nurture v. Nature Debate I give more weight and credence to the Nurture aspect, I strongly believe in personal responsibilty and have the tendency to wince at cries about how the outside world has influenced a person's decisions.

Respectfully I say to you and others, there comes a time when a person needs to stop whining about how the Watchtower, the organization, the friends, the elders, etc. etc. "influenced" me (for the negative I presume) and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your own choices and the decisions you have made in life.

And for those that would say that the choices or decisions made were not made with full knowledge or disclosure, I say "tough." We rarely have ALL of the info when we make decisions in life. We make decisions and we live with them, learn from them and make new decisions. That's life so stop blaming other "outside influences".

--Eduardo

8

Ex-JW Diane Wilson to speak in LA!!!!!

by LDH in

jw
friends

http://www.cfiwest.org

http://www.secularhumanism.org

well i caught wind of this and wanted to make sure anyone in the greater la area has an opportunity to plan ahead for this event.

Oroborus21

Who is Diane Wilson?

--Eduardo

28

What was your dream?

by ashitaka in

jw
friends

did being a witness hurt, hamper, or help your dreams?

did you want to be a dancer?

an actor?

Oroborus21

Well although I was raised in a JW household and my folks and most family have been in the Truth for a long long time, I was always allowed to make my own choices (or at least I made them anyway).

So in terms of growing up I did everything that I wanted to do: extracurricular sports, activities, clubs, prom, etc...no dreams deferred there....

then in graduating high school in 1989 I went straight to college far-far away (at least in terms of the difference between a small town New Mexico life) to Los Angeles....so again I have done what I wanted to and being a JW had no effect....

In all this time I never had a desire to smoke, do drugs, etc. (and I have never had a drink for a different reason though)...and in part this was do to my JW upbringing and in bigger part because I considered most of this stuff very foolish....

The only thing that up to that point being a JW (caused me to miss out on) (or if you want "dreams" that I missed out on) is all the sex that I could have had and the "missed opportunities" due to my adhering to bible morals. (Probably, well perhaps definitely, today I might have not missed out on those if I were to do it all again.)

As for dreams yet to be realized there are so many and I have many irons in the fire. I have never believed in being just "one thing" so that outlooks guides my future endeavours. One thing I have always wanted to do is to write and do some now and before but I hope to one day have myself in a financial situation where I could just have a writer's life full-time. I don't see that being a JW or not will have any impact on that dream, although lately (the past 5 years) or so I realized that some of my future writings will have to do with being a JW and the org. I have been working on the beginnings of one book already and more recently, I have thought about putting out there some legal writing/research pertaining to the Org. and being a JW or ex-JW for others to consider.

--Eduardo

21

Tissues or Hankies ??

by Prisca in

jw
friends

.

time for a bit of fluff, methinks..... which do you use - tissues or hankies?.

i use tissues, cos i don't see any reason why i would want to put something i've blown my nose on in with the rest of my laundry .

Oroborus21

Hankies? this is yet another relic of the past that needs to get lost in the 21st Century....

Gee, I love carrying my boogers around in my pocket....or

.....its a portable booger-carrier only $9.95.....or

....Ahhhh, Memories

--Eduardo

12

Can I get an explanation

by Bang in

jw
friends

comforter started a thread stating how ex-jws won't go from door to door.

my own hearing is that people aren't supposed to.

"do not go from house to house".

Oroborus21

Regarding Luke 10:

Jesus in instructing the 70 disciples that he sent out to preach the good news of God's kingdom was emphasing the primacy of the message and to TRUST in God to back their work. Thus he instructed the disciples to not take along foodstuffs, etc.

He emphasizes that when they find a household which accepts their peaceful greeting and admits them into hear their message and to be taught, that they should accept what the householder provides. He says "for the workers are worthy of their wages" (not to define an employer/employee relationship) but to indicate to them that they should have no shame in accepting this hospitality for indeed they are worthy to receive such in doing God's work. He further admonishes "not to transfer from house to house" (NWT) or as quoted about "do not go from house to house" to emphasize that they should not be seeking BETTER ACCOMODATIONS elsewhere for if the householder is willing to listen and to give them a place to stay etc. the disciples should be satisfied with whatever is provided and to do God's work, the primary mission.

This scripture does NOT prohibit the "door-to-door" or "house-to-house" work that Witnesses engage in.

Likewise, however, the popular "supporting" scripture at Acts 20:20 cited by Witnesses does not describe the Witnesses' method of teaching. As the NWT Reference Bible indicates and as many other translations indicate the phrase "from house to house" is also properly translated as "in the houses".

Paul thus in describing the many facets of his ministry indicates that on some occasions he was able to preach and teach in certain persons homes, privately to the household.

This again however does NOT indicate an endorsement of the method of ministry that Witnesses engage in today.

The FACT is that there is nothing at all in the Bible that gives a pattern of ministry that is a model for the Witnesses' "house-to-house" "door-to-door" method of ministry.

All accounts of Jesus' ministry describe either very public teachings such as on the hillsides, from upon the water to the shore, in the Temple, etc. or else they depict very intimate gatherings. Likewise the disciples were encouraged to follow Jesus' example and they did, including Paul and the other apostles and early congregations.

It should be pointed out that there is nothing that Scripturally prohibits the modern Witnesses method of ministry and since we have found this to be useful there is nothing wrong with it per se.

However, anyone who has been part of the organization understands how this method is given the appearance (in the least) as being Biblical and more importantly from a org. cultural viewpoint it is consider essential to the character and fullfillment of being a modern Jehovah's Witness.

--Eduardo

31

What do you listen to?

by terafera in

jw
friends

what song do you put on when you're sad?

is there a certain song that never fails to tear you up and why?.

what do you listen to when you're in a good mood?

Oroborus21

Leonard Cohen, the early stuff......

35

Is It Fair To Discipline Born-Into-It's?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

a born-into-it teenager or maybe someone in their early 20's, gets df'd for an unspecified offence.

later the df'd person protests that df'ing is unscriptural and inhumane, only to be told "you knew the score, you knew what would happen, it's your fault".. but is it?

maybe it might be fairer for a converted person to be df'd for breaking the rules, after all, a converted person has joined the jw's willingly and has therefore accepted the witness rules.

Oroborus21

Howdy,

There are actually two different thoughts being expressed in this thread.

The first one and to answer your question of "whether it is fair to discipline born-into-its" I would say "yes it is fair."

First discipline is going to come into play if their is some "sin" committed. Assuming that it is appropriate to punish for the particular "sin" in the first place, it should make no difference (from a fairness POV) how long a person is a baptized witness or whether they were raised in the Truth, i.e. it is the SIN and the persons supposed lack of repentance that is the factor that is important not their status (supposedly).

But beyond that, consider this. A person who is raised as a Witness is likely to see others Disfellowshipped, to shun them and perhaps even to have someone close to them in this status. Therefore, one could say that in comparison to a new convert, the born-into-its are even more accountable for their sins. In fact one could thus say that it is actually more fair to punish them then it is to punish new converts because of their heightened experience with disfellowshipping.

To put it another way, one big deficiency that I have ALWAYS had a problem with when it comes to Bible Studies is that the person being studied with HAS NO CLUE of the social consequences of DF'ng. In fact, I would wager that in MOST bible studies are never prepared for this potential consequence of membership and it is probably not one of the topics of studies as they progress towards membership. At most, I believe the whole concept of Disfellowshipping is used as selling point of the religion in how JWs are willing to expel wrongdoers. This is meant to be an obvious sign of the true christian organization and promoted as a GOOD THING. Even if conceptually the potential convert (bible study) understands that if they get baptized they can find themselves DF'd in the future, because they haven't had any experience in seeing it happen to someone they care about they have no grasp of the social ramifications.

So if you follow what I am saying, again it would seem MORE FAIR to discipline persons raised as a Witness who SHOULD have a better understanding of what it means to be DF'd and seek to avoid getting in that state with greater vigour than a convert.

The SECOND idea that most have posted in this thread goes to the situation where persons were baptized TOO YOUNG.

I agree that the pressure of early baptism is a reality and a terrible facet of the org. We are talking about lifetime commitment (supposedly) and so in my view we should treat the situation like we would treat any other lifetime commitment (most obviously marriage).

Would we encourage a young person (even someone under 18 years old) to get married?Maybe, but it probably is not a good idea and most reasonable persons would say definitely not! Likewise persons under 18 should not be pressured into getting baptized for all of the same reasons they would not be encouraged to get married at an early age.

The good news is that the youth of this generation are tech-savvy and Web-proficient. That means that despite the current admonitions against the Internet (and future stronger prohibitions which I foresee) on the part of the Org. these younger folks in the future are going to be exposed to the counter-information and what is available on the Net. Thus we can hope that they will be able to make a better informed choice then generations of Witnesses which have preceded them.

--Eduardo