I have this publication, I can scan some of the pics if anyone wants to see them.
-Eduardo
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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32
Paradise Lost Paradise Regained / The Terror Pages
by prophecor in.
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did those pictures of people jumping outta' thier graves not scare the $#!+ outta' you?
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43
mediator?
by Momofmany inlast night my mom and i were talking.
she asked me to give her one reason other than the un and 607 why i can't go back to the kh.
i told her, jesus is my mediator.
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Oroborus21
Howdy,
Actually Leolala, your excerpts prove the point very well that the Society does say that Christ is a mediator for all mankind when it comes to Prayer. And that was essentially in line with what I was saying that the limited use of "mediator" as a term, limited to only 144,000, is only used when they are discussing the New Covenant in line with their theology.
I understand what you are saying in that the term itself "mediator" is used in different ways, sometimes incorporating mediatorship for all mankind and sometimes in a narrow sense of making the New Covenant effective, but I do not agree that these are inconsistent. It simply is just a matter of using a term that does have different meanings in different situations. Perhaps more care should be or could be given so as not to cause confusion. I think the one excerpt you provided does this well by saying that Christ is a mediator for the 144K when it comes ot the New Covenant but of course is a ransomer ([otherwise mediator in a different sense]) for all persons.
Often the Society doesn't put out there the qualification when talking about the mediatorship role of Christ in enforcing the New Covenant but I think for persons who are thoughtful about the information there isn't much confusion. this would be especially so for bible students who are familiar with the many scriptures that support the idea that Christ is a mediator in various ways for all persons (who desire it.)
It seems to me that it is only those that want to read something like what has been presented in this thread and have a knee-jerk reaction without really looking at what the Society is saying or more importantly without examining what Jehovah's Witnesses' belief really is, namely that JWs do believe that Christ is the intercessor for prayer, the redeemer for all, the ransomer, the creator by which God created all, and so on.
Having said all of that, again the very claim regarding the new covenant I believe to be wrong as I personally don't believe the Society is correct to assert the 144K as a literal number and the basic claim about these persons special heavenly role but that is a different topic.
I guess the reason that I have posted 3 times in this thread is because the matter between the original poster and his mother could be so easily cleared up with just some basic study of what JWs do believe and what the Society's does teach about this and now according to the latest post, even the JW mom is now confused since it seems the son (original poster) didn't understand how the Society uses the term mediator in a limited sense when it is discussing the New Covenant (doctrine).
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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mediator?
by Momofmany inlast night my mom and i were talking.
she asked me to give her one reason other than the un and 607 why i can't go back to the kh.
i told her, jesus is my mediator.
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Oroborus21
TD,My point above is that the Society doesn't deny that Jesus is a mediator for all mankind in line with 1 Timothy 2:5 when it comes to the RANSOM itself.
Everyone is going off saying that the Society is asserting that Jesus is not the mediator for all mankind in these other areas. People are mixing apples with oranges. Every excerpt provided above or that you will find where the Society says that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 is clearly talking about the NEW COVENANT and clearly NOT TALKING ABOUT anything else, like the Ransom or Prayer, etc.
Mom can write the Society for an explanation but they will simply explain what I have already said above. Jesus is certainly the ransomer and redeemer (thus a mediator of sorts) for ALL mankind and the Society agrees with that. Jesus is certainly the person through whom we may approach God in prayer AND THE SOCIETY AGREES WITH THAT.
Only with respect to this funky belief about only 144k going to heaven does the Society say that when it comes to those persons' privilege to go to Heaven to serve as Kings and Priests there, that that agreement, that contract, that covenant is what was entered into between them and Jesus as God's agent and it is he who then goes before GOD on their behalf to assert and fulfill the terms of that contract/covenant. That is what the Society means when it says that Christ is only mediator for THOSE persons WHEN IT COMES TO THE NEW COVENANT.
There simply is no conflict or contradictions OTHER THAN THE FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE ITSELF that teaches only 144,000 go to the heaven or that the NEW COVENANT does not embrace all Christians.
-Eduardo
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144,000??
by What_is_ur_point inas long as i can remember there have been the 144,000. that number told to me and told to everyone in the witness religon.. (how many are left) why are the men just there at the headquarters..?.
here's my thoughts.. i know of a woman who is part of the 144,000 and she doesn't talk to the rest of them at the headquarters.
this always has botherd me.. i wonder why wouldnt her thoughts and opinions be of some attention..one time wayyy before i was dfd again.. we were sitting talking.. and her name is alice.. and she lives in nh.. and we were having tea.
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Oroborus21
Howdy,
well you have come across what is a well known flaw in the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine. Despite what anyone, including the Society might claim, the men and women who comprise the Faithful and Discreet Slave class (aka those earthly remainder of the 144,000) do not as a class or even in any significant portion have any kind of leadership role in the Organization. They have as much input as the Iowa farmboy that is mopping the floors at Bethel - or perhaps even less.
This fact is why over the past couple of decades the Society started using the addended phrase "the FDS represented by its Governing Body" when discussing leadership or Organization decisions. The use of just the "FDS class" alone would easily be recognized as an exaggeration at best and a lie (misrepresentation) at worse to everyone, especially members of that class.
The fact is that there are only two possible outcomes over the next two decades or so under current JW theology. Either Armageddon DOES come while some of the 8000 or so FDS/Annointed/Remnant/144,000 are yet living or (and frankly more probably) there will need to be MAJOR adjustments/abandonments of some key teachings and doctrines including the FDS doctrine itself and those pertaining to the 144,000 number.
This is inevitable if the Organization wants to survive into the latter half of this century.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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Can defd or another JW tell me why the watchtower society was formed?
by jaffacake inthis is serious part of my research.
the watchtower articles from the 1970s help, but there are gaps in my understanding.
russell was the founder of the watchtower society, and presumably part of the faithful & discreet slave?
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Oroborus21
Well the answer to that Jaffa is pretty simple, that happened as soon as Rutherford began to take the reigns.Today's Organization is the cultural child of Rutherford, the structural child of Knorr and the spiritual child of F. Franz. Only in some of its core facets is the legacy of Russell living on.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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Please don`t read if you are a current witness and have doubts.
by void inwell i am new to the board, i have faded away from the truth lies about 6 years ago.
it still has an effect on me today, so much so i gave the warning in the title.
this is because one of the things drilled into me, was that its far worse to lead a member of the flock away.
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Oroborus21
Hey there Void,
Just wanted to welcome to the Forum since this is your first post. Wow read 2000 threads? that's probably more than most.
Don't worry about the dysphraxia thing here, people will understand what you mean. And besides people on the NET stopped playing grammar/spelling police about 1995 when all the Generation Yers (Generation Why?) who can't spell worth a damn anyway came online.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
of the Generation X-class.
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TV: Mechannibals
by Simon ingreat new programme on now on bbc2 - "mechannibals".
it's like a mix between "scrap heap challenge" and "the great egg race" (remember that?
... professor heinz wolf ...).
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Oroborus21
You guys with your crazy quirky British TV shows.
I will wait for the American version when some twit will really muck it up, no doubt extracting every ounce of humour and embuing it instead with as much commercialism and corporate graft as possible. That's the American Way!
-Eduardo
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Whats the worst dish you ever served???
by Tez ini am a reasonable cook when i can be bothered (as paulj will hopefully confirm) but often resort to quick and easy methods, packet mixes, tins etc.. whereas my parner is a brilliant cook!!
leave him in the kitchen for a little while and he produces something from scratch that is delicious.
so today i decided to extend my culinary skills!
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Oroborus21
REVENGE....
I made the mistake of serving it Luke-Warm.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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Can defd or another JW tell me why the watchtower society was formed?
by jaffacake inthis is serious part of my research.
the watchtower articles from the 1970s help, but there are gaps in my understanding.
russell was the founder of the watchtower society, and presumably part of the faithful & discreet slave?
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Oroborus21
Greetings!
Actually Russell wasn't the first president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
The following are just a few points taken from my Omni Timeline which will be available on my site soon (www.Jehovahs-Witnesses.net) and that might flesh out some of the details for you.
In 1870, Russell formed the "Pittsburgh Bible Class" with himself and a group of between 8-16 adult members.
In 1876, Russell becomes assistant editor of Barbour's Herald of the Morning and affiliates his Pittsburgh Bible Class with Barbour's and Paton's Rochester NY bible group. The readership of the Herald are almost entirely former or current Adventists.
In 1879 Russell withdraws from Herald of the Morning, he "borrows" the Herald's mailing list of subscribers. Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence first published using commercial publishers, has initial printing of 6,000.
In 1881, (February 16) Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society formed with W.H. Conley as president and C.T. Russell as secretary/treasurer.
This was an unincorporated "Society" much like any association is today which hasn't grown to the extent of becoming an incorporated charity or non-profit or taken that step. As for the "reasons" why the Society was formed in the first place, it is fairly simple to guess. There would be all of the same reasons why such associations are formed today. For organization and coordination, to better address the purpose, to associate with others who have the same interest and purpose, etc. (Actually, there is no reason to guess because Russell tells the story himself in the early issues of ZWT)
The fact is that at this time and for a long time afterwards the persons who belonged to "the Society" were ALSO members of other churches and congregations, frankly mostly of the Adventist congregations that were still left around and forming into organized groups themselves or remaining independent - but also from other denominations.
So initially, at least, Russell never had the intention to form a new or separate Church, in fact he viewed "Church" and Organized Religion with a strict hierarchy and centralization, etc. as a BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM.
In 1884, (December 15) Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was legally incorporated in Pennsylvania, USA, with C.T. Russell as president, and his wife Maria as Secretary-Treasurer.
In 1896, the association's name Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society changed to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society
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I will have more info available on my site but I just thought you might be interested in the above points.
-Eduardo
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Tiramasu
by Mulan inon another thread, i mentioned tiramasu and that i have a great recipe.
i had inquiries for the recipe, so decided to post it.
originally, it was from our friend, venice_it.
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Oroborus21
Howdy,
sounds like a great recipe but the ladyfingers are supposed to be SOAKED IN RUM or it isn't REAL Tiramasu.
Virtually all of the tiramasu that you find in restaurants are all not real because they don't soak the Lady Fingers in RUM.
This is similar to virtually all CAESAR SALADS that you find in restaurants that don't use Anchovies or Anchovy paste in the Caesar dressing.
TRUE CHRISTIANS like TRUE TIRAMASU
-Eduardo