Posts by Oroborus21

26

The Butterfly Effect

by Rabbit in

jw
friends

it has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's .

wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world.

--chaos theory

Oroborus21

Hey Rabbit,

It is a good and thought provoking movie. I don't think it did as well as it could have at the box office but a lot of higher intelligence movies don't always play with the hoi polloi.

It is good when story touches us deeply and makes us think about things in our own lives. I am sorry that it brought forth hurt but it is a useful process towards healing.

best wishes,

Eduardo

PS: I love movies that deal with choice and alternative paths. For some lighter fare you might check out these movies that have a such a theme if you haven't already seen them:

Sliding Doors, Run Lola Run, Tampopo, American Graffiti, and to an extent Rashomon is the prototype for variable perspective films.

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

hey West, I think you might be right about me being wrong on the entity/org question. It doesn't change things too much though since the first question would still be is this person a member of a religious order? and then the second issue would be whether what they were doing is work related thus making them an employee. Upton claims herself according to the story to be a Witness then and now, so I still don't understand how that first question could be bypassed by the judge and wish the reporters had given a better summary. I will be curious to see what happens with why Bethelites would not be exempt from the WC system and think the panel will differ with the judge.

But I still come back to what seems to be the bottom line as far as Worker's Comp goes which is that imposition of it on the WTS would not amount to much pain for it.

I think Gary B might be on to something. If the relationship is defined as a employer/employee relationship in this context then that might open up all kinds of cans of worms in other areas where there are laws both fed and state which deal with such a relationship. We could have Bethelites filing sexual harassment or religious bias claims with the EEOC or FEHA after being asked to leave, etc. who knows? Such things are probably a stretch for these at-will religious volunteers but one never knows for certain.

-Eduardo

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

Oroborus21

Jgnat,

I understand what you are saying but there is a distinction.

For an employer who should be under the WC laws, then of course, past claims can be made. After all, the legislature doesn't wish to encourage employers to try and go without WC coverage by allowing them to get away with not paying for past injuries. The NY board gives a schedule for the caps for periods of times prior but it also says that failing to file a timely claim may jeopardize recovery. In any case that is not what is in issue.

My point is that NY law exempts religious orders. the WTS is a relgious order for purposes of the WC law. Thus it has had, until this decision, every reason and expectation not to establish WC insurance. It is not like a regular employer who knew or should have known that it was subject to the WC law. Thus I cannot see that it would be equitable or permitted to be held retroactively accountable for past injuries and there is nothing in the news article, nor I would venture to guess, in the actual decision that would try to make the Society have to pay for past injuries in the WC system.

-Eduardo

5

Football

by sandy in

does anybody care to explain it to me.

i like sports, i watch basketball, baseball, soccer but football..... just cannot get into it.

i never care enough to try and understand the game, the rules.

Oroborus21

Greetings!

Probably like anything in life, learning about it helps a lot with the appreciation. this is true of everything from Opera which I lecture on from time to time to kids, to Curling.

What you need is someone who will sit down with you and explain everything to you. Then go see some games in person (even if only at the high-school level) and maybe play a flag-football game or two. then you will get what everyone else does, or not.

Not everyone loves the same stuff, I mean I understand auto-racing but I still think it is boring as hell. And don't even get me started on the Wannabe NBA (WNBA) which is BORING!!!!!!!! God if I want to see women score a measly 5 baskets a quarter, I will go watch the Lady Trojans. And bass-fishing, my God who made that a sport AND decided that it made good television? Definitely one of the signs of the apocalypse.

The level of play is sometimes a factor from the fan's perspective and sometimes things are just events. For example, I think little league baseball is interesting but I can't stand to watch Professional Major leagues. yeah the guys are the best, but it is sooo boring waiting for a mistake or the occassional home run. On the other hand going to a baseball game is a great time because it is really a social event. You sit, enjoy some Dodger dogs, cheer, sing, have a beer or two, and talk about stuff. lots of fun.

-Eduardo

24

law school

by John Doe in

jw
friends

are there any lawyers here?

i'm a year from graduating with a double major in math and english, and am considering law school.

any ideas/pros/cons?

Oroborus21

CuriousMind,

I think you misunderstood my quip. In law school, a three year program, (unless you do a dual degree program, I almost did an MBA at the same time, but instead opted for a Masters instead to finish within the 3 years) the student takes a number of "core classes" contracts, evidence, torts, etc. and then a number of elecitives. EAch class does have (usually) a final exam that is about 2 hrs to 3 hrs long and they are not easy.

My joke was that these are really just "quizzes" because in the real scheme of things, the only thing a law grad has to worry about is passing the licensing exam, otherwise known as the bar exam, in the jurisdiction that they want to live and practice. The exam varies somewhat.

In California, we have a unique part that most states do not have which adds a 3rd Day to our exam, the Performance Test, which consists of getting a stack of materials and then doing something with it like one might do in law practice. Writing a brief, a motion, etc. In California the bar exam is conducted over three days and is 6 hours a day.

Technically speaking it isn't even necessary to go to law school, as many jurisdictions, including Calif. have an exception that allows someone to demonstrate that they have engaged in intense personal study of the law and are qualified to sit for the exam. But most persons do go to law school and as mentioned, before law school, an undergraduate degree, usually of 4 years length to obtain, is generally required.

I don't know how other systems compare. I know that many foreign lawyers come here to do an LLM or even to go to law school here, maybe because they do business for internatonal companies. I know many people from Russia and Ukraine and it seems like it is pretty easy to become a lawyer there.

I think law schools should be more vocational in nature, but mine wasn't, and I think it would be good if some apprenticeship program was in place like in the old days to first become a lawyer.

-Ed

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

Oroborus21

Right West, Which is why I was disappointed by the reporting. I have no doubt that the WTS must have claimed that is is exempt from the WC law.

You see, no matter what a Judge says, if a religous order is exempt from the WC law under NY law, that judge cannot overturn the legislative's will and the law on his own authority.

But we don't have the transcript to look at and it wasn't reported in the news article, as to that first major point. what happened on that question of whether the WTS is exempt or not? Obviously, from implication, by awarding Upton an award and finding her able to benefit from WC, the conclusion was that the WTS is subject to Worker's Comp in New York.

THAT is the big news but the article didn't tell us WHY the judge ruled that the WTS despite being a recognized religous order is not exempt.

What was reported in the article was the Judge's statements regarding the second question, whether Upton should be deemed and employee of the WTS.

there the WTS also evidently argued (though we can only guess from the quote) that as a voluntary religious worker, Upton (nor any of its workers) shouldn't be considered an employee within the meaning of WC, which the Judge disagreed with.

My point in my posts was not about this latter question, and again, what the person is doing is important and the "status" of whether they are an employee is of course the question to be answered in deciding whether someone can make a WC claim.

But rather my point about this whole situation was that the really big question, the main point, the first point, is what needs to be settled. We don't have enough from the new article to speculate on why the judge evidently held that the WTS is subject to Worker's Compensation in New York.

What I take issue with is that I think it is premature to make a lot of assumptions about the impact of this hearing until there is a final decision and secondly, that even assuming that the WTS is subject to WC system, the actual impact is minimal and not as earth-shattering as some may have hoped.

-Eduardo

32

What's the very next event the JW's are waiting for?

by JH in

jw
friends

.

i'm just wondering what next event the jw's are waiting for, or do they know?.

i mean, god can't keep them in the dark, can he?

Oroborus21

maybe peace in the Middle East,

Personally, I am looking forward to 12-21-12, just for the fun of it.

I think "A Century after 1914" (2014) makes for some interesting psychological baggage upon Jehovah's Witnesses.

But really, you hit the nail on the head. One of the major psychological crises within the Org right now is that for perhaps the first time in its history the Org doesn't have a solid belief or sense of urgency pointing towards either a date itself or a construct (like the 1914 Generation Doctrine) and it seems to be really causing some angst among the friends.

Couple this with the lack of strong leadership and the Org is presently at a place I like to call the "crossroads." What will happen from here is anyone's guess and a few of us are taking the initiative to get the Org headed somewhere.

-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

Oroborus21

Sunspot,

From what I understand the medical bills have been paid, the article didn't mention whether further medical costs were ongoing, these continue in a WC situation, even when the claim is "disputed" (that is the usual term). I think that the cash award is held up, or if a lump-sum payment was made by the Insurance Carrier, during the review/appeal process at the Insurance Carrier's option but I could be wrong about that.

There is only one other appeal level within the NY board, to a 3 member panel, which has to be requested within 30 days of the judge's decision. If the panel upholds the decision, the WTS could then appeal, I believe to the Superior Court for that area (I think I read that in my perusal of the regs there) and from there it enters into the normal court system. (this is actually how pretty much all admin law/law courts goes, very similarly like this.)

From the normal court system, it would go (in California) from Sup. Ct. to a Ct of Appeals, and then to the State Supreme Ct. and possibly from there to the U.S. Supreme Court, depending on of course meeting certain requirements all along the way. New York is probably similar.

I think this won't be held up by the panel, and if it is for some reason, that it won't hold up in Superior Court. If it is, I am not really sure whether the Society would invest the resources to push the issue further in the courts due to publicity and simply cost.

It may be easier and less costly just to start carrying the insurance. Remember there are probably not a lot of claims anyway, since everything is done pretty safely, and you can bet that behind closed doors, the Society might put a lot of pressure on good Bethelites not to file a WC claim. Maybe not overtly but there would probably be some subtle hints about the correct way to handle the matter.

-Eduardo

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

Oroborus21

West70:

Again you misunderstand, by the way are you reading the actual transcript or just going off what is reported and your knowledge of law. I haven't read the actual transcript so I am just doing the latter also.

The fundamental question is whether the relgious org, the WTS, is subject to WC requirements or exempt from them. To answer that question, which is the first question that must be answered, the status or activity of the workers is immaterial.

If you hold that the WTS is subject to Worker's Compensation insurance requirements (which is really the "big news" part of the story here) THEN you can , for purposes of deciding the case before the judge, examine whether the person should be deemed an "employee" and eligible to benefit from WCompensation.

Of course, what the employees are doing is important, whether they are paid or not is not important, but only in determining whether they may get WC or not. This aspect of the story was not the "big news" or important feature of the story which is what I am trying to stress.

Evidently, the judge deemed that despite the claims from the WT that is is a religous order exempt from WC requirements, that 1) it is subject to WC in NY and 2) that the claimant Upton was an employee engaged in work related activity at the time of injury. without reading the transcript, or being present, no one can say whether the Society advanced any arguments on the second point, that Ms. Upton was not engaged in work.

The newspaper article mentions that the lawyer Miller said the Uptons were "volunteer members of a religous order," but it didn't clarify and left ambiguous whether such an assertion was made by the Society to back it's claim that it, as an employer/corp. should be exempt from WC as a relgious order, under NY law, or whether the Society was also trying to dispute that the injury occurred while working. Perhaps it was both? We don't know.

I would expect you to appreciate the subtleties of the discussion West.

respectfully, Eduardo

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

Oroborus21

Howdy,

I know this is completely tangential, but I was wondering Randy or anyone who might know, has there ever been any inkling of a thought about unionizing the Bethelites? (Obviously, I can imagine why such a thought or move would be absurd given most Bethelites when they go think they are what, have just won the spiritual lottery?, whatever, but I wonder if in today's climate, where there is probably some who disgruntled and ready to shake things up, if they couldn't consider it.) I don't know how being a religious order affects any attempts at unionization, maybe it prevents it entirely. Interesting to think about.

-Ed