....when the number "69" only reminds you of the "Peach on Earth" District Convention
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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24
You know you're an elders' wife when...
by stillAwitness in.
...you're asleep in the back of the hall after the meeting while waiting for your husband to finish up another elders' meeting.
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Questions: What is the Sacred Secret? and Locusts of Abyss?
by Guest with Questions ini have a copy of may 1,1998 watchtower.
when i heard a few years ago about the witnesses believing that they were the locusts i thought it was just a rumour; that even for a jw org it was too far fetched.
a few weeks ago i read about it again on this site.
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Oroborus21
When this article came out in 1998 there was a lot of discussion online about how completely moronic it was that Jehovah's Witnesses/the Society applied the "work" of the locusts to themselves (Joel 1 - Joel 2:11) but NOT GOD destroying the locusts and restoring the land because of their work (as seen in Joel 2:12 -- ).
The MOST TELLING feature was in the following article which purportedly takes the study through Joel 2 accounting for each verse, carefully and slyly omits any consideration of Joel 2:25 (or 26-30).
Here is the excerpt from the second article where you can see that the discussion simply jumps over from verse 24 to verse 30, carefully omitting consideration or mention of the "damaging" scriptures.
If any JWs were actually reading from the bible and reading all the scriptures in tact, no doubt they would have found Joel 2:25 very puzzling to the interpretation that Jehovah's Witnesses were represented by the locusts as espoused in the Watchtower study.
*** w98 5/1 pp. 17-18 Who Will "Get Away Safe"? ***
A
Spiritual Paradise14
That is the way both the anointed and the other sheep view things, and as a result, Jehovah blesses them. "Jehovah will be zealous for his land and will show compassion upon his people." (Joel 2:18) In 1919, Jehovah showed zeal and compassion for his people when he restored them and brought them into his realm of spiritual activity. This is truly a spiritual paradise, well described by Joel in these words: "Do not be fearful, O ground. Be joyful and rejoice; for Jehovah will actually do a great thing in what He does. Do not be fearful, you beasts of the open field, for the pasture grounds of the wilderness will certainly grow green. For the tree will actually give its fruitage. The fig tree and the vine must give their vital energy. And, you sons of Zion, be joyful and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he will be bound to give you the autumn rain in right measure, and he will bring down upon you people a downpour, autumn rain and spring rain, as at the first. And the threshing floors must be full of cleansed grain, and the press vats must overflow with new wine and oil."—Joel 2:21-24.15
What a delightful picture! Abundant provisions of three staples of life in Israel—grain, olive oil, and wine—together with plentiful flocks. In our day those prophetic words are indeed fulfilled in a spiritual way. Jehovah provides us all the spiritual food we need. Do we not all delight in such God-given abundance? Truly, as Malachi foretold, our God has ‘opened the floodgates of the heavens and emptied out upon us a blessing until there is no more want.’—Malachi 3:10.The
End of a System of Things16
It is after foretelling the paradisaic condition of God’s people that Joel prophesies about the pouring out of Jehovah’s spirit. When Peter quoted this prophecy at Pentecost, he said that it was fulfilled "in the last days." (Acts 2:17) The outpouring of God’s spirit back then meant that the last days had begun for the Jewish system of things. The outpouring of God’s spirit on the Israel of God in the 20th century means that we are living in the last days of the worldwide system of things. In view of this, what does the future hold? Joel’s prophecy goes on to tell us: "I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."—Joel 2:30, 31.-----------
In my opinion, this was just another example of the Society expressing its spiritual arrogance -- similar to the way it has done in foreseeing the fullment of scripture or bible prophecy in its own Organizational history on many occassions. However, since these scriptures do not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses at all and the locusts do not represent them, there is no need to contemplate any further meaning with respect to "Abaddon" or to conclude that this means that they are sinister or serving the army of the destroyer.
-Eduardo
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190
UPDATE 2: Since Freedom is Free, Why is it Taxed?
by RichieRich inyesterday after school i had to go work on a project with friends.
mom said be home by 5, but there was a huge accident a mile from where i live, and i sat on the road for like 10 - 12 minutes, and was 5 minutes late getting home.
mom was there (didn't go to work- guess why) and she was pissed.
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Oroborus21
Quotes,
just in case it was missed, parents have extremely large amount of rights over their minor child's property but all of that changes when Richie turns 18.
Once he is 18 (this saturday?) what she could get away with doing before changes. While she can still search his room and consent to it being seached by law enforcement for example and rumble through his property, she can't take any of it or deprive him of it. She can't take his money or his auto, unless she is also listed as an owner. If he starts paying rent or even if he doesn't, if she wanted to kick him out she would probably have to file an unlawful detainer action to formally evict him. If he has a locked footlocker or lock box, she might not be able to lawfully break into it (but I am not absolutely sure of that point for NCarolina).
While a minor a parent may open mail, packages etc. addressed to their children but when he is 18 it is unlawful for her to open any of his mail - even if it is delivered to her address. (Not that it would stop her or that it stops anyone).
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I can't believe I missed it (puke alert)...
by Hecklerboy in.
check out this article in our local newspaper..
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Oroborus21
16 years ago there were only 4 of us baptized at a Special Assembly Day where we had about 1500. it doesn't seem unusual. Luna took my comment, it had to be an extremely slow news day or a dearth of "religious page" news for them to run the WT press release. It is pretty routine for a press release to get put out but few papers run them. -ed
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54
HAPPY 18TH BIRTHDAY RICHIE RICH
by DevonMcBride in.
my thoughts are with you on your first birthday as a free person.
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Oroborus21
Severus, some legal contracts can't be disavowed by a minor simply because of being a minor when they entered into it. And besides Baptism is not a legal contract.
I thought Richie's B-day was Saturday?
Well, Happy Birthday whenever it is! Hope it is thrilling.
-Eduardo
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190
UPDATE 2: Since Freedom is Free, Why is it Taxed?
by RichieRich inyesterday after school i had to go work on a project with friends.
mom said be home by 5, but there was a huge accident a mile from where i live, and i sat on the road for like 10 - 12 minutes, and was 5 minutes late getting home.
mom was there (didn't go to work- guess why) and she was pissed.
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Oroborus21
RRich:
I was glad you didn't take my post on the other thread the wrong way (unlike many here). You certainly are mature (much more mature than many other forum participants). Working out can be a great stress reliever and it is great that you are in to it. What I had in mind is that at times of great stress and turmoil, I have found it good to focus on improving myself and also that it helps a lot to get encouragement from anywhere you can get it. I am sorry that I worded what I was trying to say very pooryly (BTW 350lb BP - my god! you da man!)
Sorry to hear your mom is being so unreasonable. Hopefully as you stand up for yourself as an adult and treat her with respect but with firmness in your own convictions and rights, she will come to recognize that she can't control you any longer and that she has to accept that you are a man capable of making your own decisions.
Although I was speaking only generally in the other post about being prepared and not specifically about your own plans (many said you already had prepared and had plans), it does seem like a good idea to make further preparations so that you will be able to leave the house as soon as possible. You should prepare to leave even if your Mom softens for some reason and chills out. Your goal really should be to get out of the house as soon as possible.
Just some reiteration and new thoughts:
- As everyone has suggested you should have your own bank acct and direct deposit your check. To this advice I would add that you can also do all your banking online and have the bank only issue you electronic statements. In this way your mom or dad, will not have any access or knowledge of your business.
- Opening your mail is a federal (criminal) offense. Should that problem continue, you might consider reminding your mother of this even if you would never make a report of it. A small PO box from the US post should not cost you about $40 bucks or so. You can rent for 6 months which is cheaper, alternatively you could compare box prices at Mail Boxes etc. or similar mom-n-pop PO depots, or even check to see if your college offers boxes to students (many do). If you really can't find an alternative, try to work it out with a friend who will let you get your mail from there or maybe even talk to your bosses at Target and see if they would permit packages and such to come to the store for you. You shouldn't have much mail anyway as almost all business mail can go electronic now and pay by acct takes care of all bills like for cell phone, utilities, etc. so really you are just talking about some personal mail.
- Prepaid cell phone may be the way to go until you get set.
- Scully and others suggested child protective services being involved and making allegations of abuse. As you are days away from being 18 CPS would not get involved - not too mention that the types of acts your mother has engaged in are neither abusive, in their eyes, nor illegal - not even the taking of your money or car because you were a (non-immancipated) minor at the time. A parent has full authority to access their child's property, including your car, etc. while you are a minor. Many parents react in the way you have described your mother acting when the parent finds their child doing drugs, having sex, associating with disapproved people, etc. In your case your mom's reaction is not unusual other than the reason why she is reacting this way is unusual. However, what she can get away with while you are minor changes when you turn 18. While she can still search your room and personal property unless it is locked (and you are paying rent), she can't take your money, pay checks or deprive you of your personal property after you turn 18. (and incidently, most parents would emphathize with her (and your dad's) concern over your associating with strangers via the Internet. Certainly, the authorities would look favourably on her actions of restricting your online activities. The difference between the reaction here on JWD and for example the hubbub about teens on MySpace.com is the Anti-JW issue. I wonder whether people would feel differently if you were a 16 year old girl - getting offers from strangers to send you money or let you crash at their place?)
- As for kicking you out, the fact is that she can't just throw you out. The government doesn't look kindly upon parents who create a burden upon the State by pushing out their children when they reach the age of majority without any means. She would have to follow the law in NC and that would take time, time for you to plan and leave.
The bottom line is that you want to smooth this transition as much as possible. Your best tactic is taking a very mature and professional approach, nothing juvenile and nothing of petty retaliation. Obviously, resorting to authorities or the courts is the last thing you want to do and I think you can avoid all of that just by being firm and mature with the situation. In time, who knows what relationship you may have with your parents? I hope that one day it will be a healthy and positive one. Right now you just need to take care of your business and get through this. You have a lot of emotional support and that puts you in a great position to make these changes and go through what you are going through.
best of luck,
Eduardo
PS: Careful, PoppyR, common sense and reason don't play well here.
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Dan Sydlik dies, the last of the moderating forces.
by SadElder inour good friend dan sydlik died today about 2 pm eastern time.
he was the last of the moderating forces on the gb.
lately he has had little influence among the ted (aka the boss) jaracz (head of the bethel cia - the service department) henchmen and loyalists.
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Oroborus21
sure God would use (is using?) this organization. But, since God isn't using it there is little reason to hope for reform.
AuldSoul, don't want to hijack the thread, but I am sure we could argue about this ad nauseum. I just don't see whether God is or is not "using" the Org or whether Jesus is or is not "directing" it to be a factor.
If one believes that God or Jesus is directing the Org than two viewpoints arise: changes that occur must have God's blessing or possibly be instigated by God/Jesus and secondly, change against God's will would be impossible.
If one doesn't believe that God or Jesus are directing the Org at all, then it is truly irrelevant to either implementing or preventing changes which might arise from internal and external forces.
As you know, I believe that change is inevitable and will come about through both external and internal pressures. All it takes is the will of the people and perhaps a few good leaders and challengers against the status quo to set about the changes (reform).
Such would be reformers have everything in their favor.
First, it is inherent to the Organization's culture and part of its own self-image that it is "God's celestial chariot, on the move" and subject to change and in fact change has been a part of the Organization during its entire history. Change is expected by JWs and they readily adapt, to even sweeping changes. Sure there are always some drop-out with each big change just as the history has shown, but the rest keep going and the new ones join in. Future JWs will adjust to and accept the changes of the 1914/FDS doctrine, Blood, DF'ng, etc. etc. and not look back.
And second, there is a convergence of several favourable factors DURING OUR TIME including the vacuum of strong leadership/changing of the old guard/evaporation of the WT Presidency, the lack of a "Armageddon date" or theological construct (perhaps for the first time in the Organization's history) that spurs persons to look toward a short-term view and "wait on Jehovah" and finally the advent of the Internet which allows for the free exchange of ideas and reform effort among reformers both in and out of the Organization as well as ready access to information that challenges or disintegrates the status quo.
All it takes is some Imagination and a little effort.
-Eduardo
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Dan Sydlik dies, the last of the moderating forces.
by SadElder inour good friend dan sydlik died today about 2 pm eastern time.
he was the last of the moderating forces on the gb.
lately he has had little influence among the ted (aka the boss) jaracz (head of the bethel cia - the service department) henchmen and loyalists.
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Oroborus21
that is interesting news. he was one of the few GB I have heard talk in person.
interesting changes to the GB in the next decade or so as all of the old guys WILL die....
-Eduardo
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UPDATE
by RichieRich inyesterday afternoon, i recieved 2 text messages from an anonymous source that read :.
(person that turned you in) i turned you into your brothers for your own good.
gal ?:?
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Oroborus21
Kid-A,
I think you are the one who is being an "arse". I didn't offer to work-out with Ritchie, he is across the country from me, I believe. What i offered was to encourage each other via email or whatever (assuming he eventually gets access). It doesn't take a medical degree to see that the guy is overweight and that isn't an insult. Maybe he is happy with his weight, if so that is great. But many of us care about the kid and I for one would like him to live a long and healthy life. I am starting a regimen myself and it is always good to have a friend to encourage each other to stick to it. My offer was a kindness.
And as for the other thing, growing up a Witness does have some positive aspects. Richie is who he is because of his upbringing, not in spite of it, one can't say he is stressed out and angry, in other words taking all of the negative things and attributing these to being a JW while taking all of the positive things and attributing these to other sources. It simply doesn't work that way.
-Eduardo
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C. Wah on Child Custody: Pretty Facinating Stuff
by Oroborus21 inhowdy,.
first want to give a shout-out to our newbie member jw_researcher.
thanks for the article.
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Oroborus21
JT,
I am not, nor have I ever been an Elder, but I have been around long enough to see the facts and the facts are that for all of the talk, I have never seen one actual case or even heard of one DF'ng based on someone merely accessing or considering apostate material or what would be considered false-religious material.
if you know of any actual cases, lets see the evidence, otherwise it is you who is blowing the old steam.
The Society takes the matter seriously and strongly discourages the membership from reading or researching apostate or even worldy information, especially of a religious nature and I have never said that wasn't the case and that is clearly discernible from the public statements made in the literature and from the platform.
It is the acts of interfaith such as attending another church, acts of association with DF'd or DA'd or apostates, yes, ala Ray Franz, these things have lead to people being disfellowshipped, but not simply the acts of accessing information.
Perhaps now, when the Internet presents such a great opportunity for the free association of reformers and the exchange of ideas and plans, the Society might try to make examples out of some Witnesses, but that remains to be seen and done.
For now, whether it is visiting this website, or any other, or checking out Crisis of Conscience from the Library, a Witness found doing these activities might indeed find themselves in the backroom or even in a judicial committee - but it hasn't happened yet. Richie Rich's current experience is a good illustration of what really happens and note that his trouble doesn't stem from his simply obtaining or accessing information, or even the online activities, but with his own personal actions which "bring disrepute" upon the congregation (for example taking and posting a photograph of him making an obscene gesture in what is considered "Jehovah's house", taking property that doesn't belong to him, etc.).
The internet or the consideration of apostate material remain only tangential issues. Even in my own Judicial Committee meetings it was a side issue, but this it is not the underlying "crime" or sin and I doubt that it ever will be.
The Society will never cross that line because then it would open itself up to real charges that it tries to control the information obtained by its members, something that it has never done. To date, at most it has tried to influence and encourage the membership and couched strongly worded "you should not do it" type statements towards the membership, but thus far there are no public statements in the literature or from the platform that reading Crisis of Conscience (for example) or visiting JWD are grounds for disfellowshipping. And until and unless such public statements are made, no Witness could be held accountable for such activity.
-Eduardo