Posts by Oroborus21

20

Are JWs Christians

by JesusIsKing in

if so i would like to know your reasoning.

Oroborus21

its kind of a pointless discussion because no one who feels stongly about their position is likely to be pursuaded otherwise.

in the early centuries of the various groups that looked to Christ Jesus as a something to follow you had various strains of Christianity most notably the strain that won out and came to be considered orthodox and the other major strain of Christianity of the Gnostics and there were others.

Is it right for only the othodox to claim that these other groups were not Christian because they didn't believe the same things? Is it right for certain Chrisitans to essentially make the same argument today?

Anytime one tries to say that one group or religion is Christian and another is not, be they Jehovah's Witnesses or be they some mainstream religion, what they are really making a claim about is that only their definition is the correct one.

i believe that if a group claims to be Christian we should acknowledge them as christians and refrain from labellng them true or false. only Jesus can really be the judge of them.

Incidently, the basic elements of orthodox Christianity often include: baptism, the sacrament or observation of a eucharist and a trinity belief. JWs have the first two and only differ from orthodoxy on the latter. That's close enough to be considered Christian in my book.

-Eduardo

30

What's your pet peeves?

by Hannah in

jw
friends

rude and ill-mannered sales people, telephone solicitors, and people who use their sleeves as tissues and napkins..

Oroborus21

drivers that don't use their turn signals for lane changes or turning

drivers who don't turn on their headlights in the rain (very often the car is a dark or gray color)

people who talk in movies

all these damn advertising mailers/coupons and such in the mail

not being able to speak with live person when you call a company..when u want to (sometimes you don't)

not beign on time

not fulfiling a promise (maybe number one pet peeve)

23

Pan's Labyrinth

by Mystla in

has anyone here seen this movie?

if there has already been mention of it, i'm sorry, i've been afk off and on quite a bit the last month or so and have missed a lot of threads.. this is one of those hard to categorize movies.

it's a fairy tale.

Oroborus21

i wasn't making any assumptions about what M or her dad actually do.maybe they do do those things. my comment was just one in general regarding talking in movie theatres....

23

Pan's Labyrinth

by Mystla in

has anyone here seen this movie?

if there has already been mention of it, i'm sorry, i've been afk off and on quite a bit the last month or so and have missed a lot of threads.. this is one of those hard to categorize movies.

it's a fairy tale.

Oroborus21

havent seen it yet but i want to...

i'm sorry this may not be PC but if you normally have to repeat everything that is said to your dad at the theatre, i think he should either stay home or frequent theatres which offer assistant listening devices (headphones or earphones) for him.

it is highly discourteous to others to talk during the movie for any reason, a few words here and there ok, but a running commentary..no way!

-Eduardo

21

Jehovah's Witnesses have no clergy-laity division - Right or Wrong?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

is this really true?.

http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/membership.htm.

organizationfollowing the model of first-century christianity, jehovah's witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

Oroborus21

Greetings!

JWs do have a de facto "clergy class" but not for any of the reasons espoused thus far in this thread.

Note to those discussing the Clerical privilege in the justice system. This has nothing to do with the distinction of clergy or laiety. This is an evidentiary privilege which may be available in some cases. It may be referred to as a clerical privilege but one need not be a priest or even an ordained minister. It is likely that the court would apply it, if at all, to any religious context where one person is deemed to be in a position of confidence and there is an expectation of privacy of the communication.

Bottom line is this legal aspect is not what establishes a clergy-laity separation. What establishes a clergy class among JWs is the insistence and the assertion that an ordinary publisher after such one has committed a "gross sin" cannot obtain complete spiritual healing without confessing or telling their elders about such sin.

The WT/Society believes that rather than being an option for the "spiritually sick," James specifically outlines that the older men must be sought out to help.

The de facto result then is that a person who has sinned cannot claim that they have been forgiven by God or Christ (having taken corrective steps on their own including prayer and asking forgiveness of Christ or God) unless they have confessed their sins to the elders (and subjected themselves to the congregation's "judicial" procedure).

Thus the WTS has inserted the elders as an intermediate level of authority between individuals and Christ Jesus and God which is the exact function of a priesthood.

Obviously this is completely contrary to the scriptures.

-Eduardo Leaton Jr.

288

Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly in

watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

Oroborus21

this is a response i got to an email that i sent to JW friends regarding this change..since the person is not identifiable, i don't feel too bad about posting it here. it may show what can be expected as a response from some JWs..

Men of faith look to no date. They worship what they know. JEHOVAH is
not to be mocked . Those without faith don't preach. They get hung up
on old women's questions so they can excuse there loose conduct. GET
real. Love your christain brotherhood. What you don't belong. . IF
you stay inside the flock you gain approval and protection. A FOOL
wonders off in prosuit of his own interest. The grass is not greener
there. IT'S JUST FREE.... FREE OF RESPONSIBLITY.

-------

despite responses like the above, i think it would be useful to call JWs attention to the importance of this adjustment and the previous 1935 teaching...

27

Will Jehovah's Witnesses ever form a SECT?

by Fisherman in

jw
friends

unlike all other religions including jews, mormons, and sda, there is only one jw movement.

indivuduals that leave the wts cannot organize another jw like religion.

i think that another jw religion would get the wts very angry.

Oroborus21

Fisherman,

JWs are properly considered a sect of 19th Century Adventism

http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/adventism.html

Additionally there have been several splinter groups that could be termed a sect of Intnl Bible Students/JWs. See chart above. Most notably the Dawn Bible Students are a sect of JWs splitting after the assumption of the JW name.

Of course such sects have their own commonalities with JWs and great differences which is sorta the point right.

It seems unlikely given today's JW culture that there would be any significant sect formed again. There could be mass exoduses but these exJWs would likely go off in separate ways the way that individuals do today, some joining other churches and some doing their own thing.

I believe that the best outcome for the Organization is to return once again to the Russellite model (but without much of the russellite beliefs that weigh down present bible student groups like the Dawn) of individual bible student congregations only loosely associated with each other.

http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/whither.html

-eduardo

8

With the "New Light" on 1935 will JW's come up with a Great Crowd "A" and B

by booker-t in

it is just getting like a rollercoaster ride with the changes going on at the wt society.

but it just don't surprise me as much as it used to.

i really believe that jw's will come up with a new doctrine of the "great crowd-a" (people going to heaven to help the 144,000) and a "great crowd -b" people staying on earth after armaggeddon.

Oroborus21

Well as i said on the other thread re this topic, I believe the future, probably within the next 4 years is for the number (144,000) to be taken as figurative or symbolic and not literal.

The WT has always been criticized for taking one part of the same scripture/passage as literal, the number 144,000, and another part as figurative, the names of the twelve tribes or the fact that they are Jewish tribes.

Even a non-scholar can agree that either the proper interpretation is all literal or all figurative but not this fractured understanding that the WT/JWs have had.

Thus JWs will embrace, as I say likely within the next four years, the understanding that the 144,000 is symbolic of completeness.

So yes, the two destinations belief will remain among JWs. That is some are called to heaven (that is a spiritual existence) and others to a physical life eternal, first on Earth and probably thereafter to other planets in the Universe.

-Eduardo

288

Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly in

watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

Oroborus21

PS: So that this change is not taken casually or overlooked, I urge all persons to write or contact their JW friends and family and call there attention to the May 1, WT Questions from Readers....

288

Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly in

watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

Oroborus21

Greetings All:

I've been discussing this and expecting something like this for a while now. It may not feel like it now, but this "adjustment" is bigger in terms of consequence than the abandonment of the Generation Doctrine.

Blondie hit it on the head when she said:

Looks like they are also pushing out the date of the great tribulation which they say here has to come before the last "anointed" dies. The younger the anointed the later in the future the GT can be.

The previous position of 1935 being the approximate time when the number of the 144,000 anointed were "sealed" (just the latest version of the Shut-Door doctrine) created what I call "The Last Biological Clock" doctrine in the WT.

In summary, the previous JW teachings created a ticking alarm clock in which the GT/Armageddon had to occur during the lifetime of the present 8000+ anointed due to the companion belief/teaching that some of these would still be alive at the conclusion of the GT/Armageddon and the beginning of the Millennial Reign.

Something had to give and I suspected, and even predicted, that it would be the abandonment of the 1935 date.

The immediate consequence of this action is that the non-occurrence of the GT/Armageddon in the present 8000+ anointed lives will be accepted. Also, the continued policy of "replacements" for the anointed can be maintained.

This is like hitting the "snooze" button on the alarm clock. As to how many times R&F witnesses will tolerate it, that remains to be seen.

My prediction like others have said is that the literal 144,000 teaching will be changed to the number being a "symbolic" one, that is it being a symbol of perfect completeness. That will likely be the next major change along these lines of doctrine.

Additionally, the 1914 doctrine will be finally discarded probably about 2017-8. (assuming the present system of things doesn't end on 12-21-12 of course! :-)

All of this just goes to reinforce that it is not these doctrines which are the foundational doctrines of the WT Org power but rather it is the FDS Doctrine. It is that doctrine that all persons in and out of the Organization must work to change in order to push forward the Revolution which is the future of Jehovah's Witnesses.

-Eduardo Leaton Jr.