we are made in god's image and he is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force.
here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.. the bible consistently portrays god as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme.
the bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the living one, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.. one scholar put it thus:.
Dear oh dear. Here I was thinking that the Christians was scraping the bottom of the barrel with their most recent clown Rex, and now we have someone (sunstarr) who could be his double butting in.
Could there ctually be two persons that clueless or is it Rex who have got a second identity?
Norm.
we are made in god's image and he is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force.
here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.. the bible consistently portrays god as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme.
the bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the living one, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.. one scholar put it thus:.
Our resident Bible-twit bleated thus:
We are made in God's image and He is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force. Here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.
And then he proceeded to post more cut and paste fundy drivel, which he out of some extremely misguided notion imagine is “research”.
The Bible consistently portrays God as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme. The Bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the Living One, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.
One wonders in vain how anyone who have the slightest knowledge of the Bible can produce such complete nonsense. Let us take a look at some of the Bible’s documentation of what kind of an entity God is. I bet you will all marvel at the immense display of love shown in these texts:
*** Rbi8 Numbers 31:7-9 ***
And they went waging war against Mid'i•an, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and they proceeded to kill every male. 8 And they killed the kings of Mid'i•an along with the others slain, namely, E'vi and Re'kem and Zur and Hur and Re'ba, the five kings of Mid'i•an; and they killed Ba'laam the son of Be'or with the sword.
*** Rbi8 Numbers 31:14-18 ***
17 And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. 18 And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male.
*** Rbi8 Judges 21:10-12 ***
10 Hence the assembly proceeded to send twelve thousand of the most valiant men there and to command them, saying: “Go, and YOU must strike the inhabitants of Ja'besh-gil'e•ad with the edge of the sword, even the women and the little ones. 11 And this is the thing that YOU should do: Every male and every woman that has experienced lying with a male YOU should devote to destruction.” 12 However, they found out of the inhabitants of Ja'besh-gil'e•ad four hundred girls, virgins, that had not had intercourse with a man by lying with a male. So they brought them to the camp at Shi'loh, which is in the land of Ca'naan.
*** Rbi8 Judges 18:1 ***
18 In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days the tribe of the Dan'ites was looking for an inheritance for itself to dwell there; because up to that day an inheritance had not fallen to them in the midst of the tribes of Israel.
*** Rbi8 Judges 18:7 ***
7 Accordingly the five men went on and came to La'ish and saw how the people that were within it were dwelling in self-reliance according to the custom of the Si•do'ni•ans, quiet and unsuspecting, and there was no oppressive conqueror that was molesting a thing in the land, while they were far off from the Si•do'ni•ans and they had nothing to do with mankind.
*** Rbi8 Judges 18:27-28 ***
27 As for them, they took what Mi'cah had made and the priest that had become his, and they kept going toward La'ish, against a people quiet and unsuspecting. And they proceeded to strike them with the edge of the sword, and the city they burned with fire. 28 And there was no deliverer, for it was far away from Si'don, and they had nothing at all to do with mankind; and it was in the low plain that belonged to Beth-re'hob. Then they built the city and took up dwelling in it.
*** Rbi8 Psalm 101:8 ***
8 Every morning I shall silence all the wicked ones of the earth,
To cut off from the city of Jehovah all the practicers of what is hurtful.
We are probably all familiar with the discrimination that handicapped people are facing every day. But those who are looking down on handicapped and disabled people need not have any bad conscience on that account. They are in the best of company. Such people make even God cringe:
*** Rbi8 Leviticus 21:17-23 ***
17 "Speak to Aaron, saying, 'No man of your seed throughout their generations in whom there proves to be a defect may come near to present the bread of his God. 18 In case there is any man in whom there is a defect, he may not come near: a man blind or lame or with his nose slit or with one member too long, 19 or a man in whom there proves to be a fracture of the foot or a fracture of the hand, 20 or hunchback or thin or diseased in his eyes or scabby or having ringworms or having his testicles broken. 21 Any man of the seed of Aaron the priest in whom there is a defect may not approach to present Jehovah's offerings made by fire. There is a defect in him. He may not approach to present the bread of his God. 22 He may eat the bread of his God from the most holy things and from the holy things. 23 However, he may not come in near the curtain, and he may not approach the altar, because there is a defect in him; and he should not profane my sanctuary, for I am Jehovah who is sanctifying them.'”
Aren’t you all impressed with this “passionate” and “loving” God.
One scholar put it thus:
"The Bible speaks unashamedly of Yahweh's passion, presenting him as an intense and passionate Being, fervently interested in the world of humans. Not only is there no embarrassment on the part of the OT at Yahweh's possession of emotion, but rather, it is celebrated (see for example, 2 Sam 22:8, 9, 16; Ps 145:8). In fact, his passion guarantees not only that he is intensely interested in the world but that he is a person. This in turn opens up the possibility for communion at the heart of the universe. Therefore, his passion was seen to be continually linked with the implementation of his resolve, and in this, interaction with the world. The God of the OT desired fellowship and interaction with the other persons in his world, and his anger was seen to be part of the actualization of that desire.
Indeed the Bible does. The word “passionate” is of course a much nicer way of describing the insane homicidal maniac God the Bible tell us about. Human butchers like Hitler and Stalin was also very “passionate” individuals and thus also murdered millions of people in the grip of their “passion”, but of course compared with God, the main source of death, they are all amateurs. The quote from this “Scholar” is a breathtaking example of Christian excusogetics in the extreme. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, gruesome mass slaughter and other perversions carried out at the command of this God are covered or sanitized in the age old Christian way by simply calling it something else. This must be one of the most lame posts you have ever made, Rex. You seem to be unable to understand the most simple things Rex.
Norm.
our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.
in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.
here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).
Have you been cutting and pasting from some web page again, Rex?
The problem isn’t so much how the women was treated in ancient times, but you fundies who want to freeze society as it was back then and are always ranting on about a “return” to those Biblical “values”.
Anyway, the Bible starts out straight away:
*** Rbi8 Genesis 3:16 ***
16 To the woman he said: “I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”
As you can see the men was ordained by God to “dominate” women
As we have documented ad nauseam here on this forum women were considered little more than cattle in “old Testament” Biblical time. But the lunatic Paul wasn’t much better:
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 11:6 ***
6 For if a woman does not cover herself, let her also be shorn; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 ***
7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory; but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man is not out of woman, but woman out of man; 9 and, what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man.
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ***
As in all the congregations of the holy ones, 34 let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. 35 If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.
*** Rbi8 1 Timothy 2:11-14 ***
11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression.
Real lovely “values” eh, Rex?
Norm
(my translation from german): .
"dear parents!.
i have been notified that the verdict i have received, has been approved by the court and that i will be beheaded this evening at 6:30 pm.
Hi Oldhippie,
It is indeed a touching and sad letter. It is also exactly the kind of letters they love in Brooklyn. I will now show you a couple of letters from the same period which the WT will never print. Why do you think they wouldn't print them?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Two “faithful” Brothers
The Story about two “faithful” brothers that the Watchtower Society never printed.
As the history of the Watchtower Society in Germany show, some martyrs will always come in handy. As always the leaders of such organizations have no personal passion for being martyrs, but of course have the rank and file sent to the their execution for them. Martyrs are important for such organizations and the Watchtower Society is no exception. How useful martyr are can be seen even now by the fact that the poor Jehovah's Witnesses who was killed by the Nazi’s are used to create sympathy for the Watchtower Society today, with the current “traveling exhibition”.
In January/February of 1944 some well-known German Jehovah's Witnesses together with others was arrested by the Gestapo, and sentenced to death. They were Johannes Schindler, Wilhelm Schumann and Franz Fritsche.
These men were long standing and well known members of the Bible students in Germany. Schumann worked at Bethel in Magdeburg and is mentioned in the 1974 yearbook:
“*** yb74 96 Germany (Part One) ***
There was no color photography at the time, but Wilhelm Schumann of the Magdeburg Bethel was untiring in his efforts to touch up the black-and-white photographs with color.”
In 1944 the happy days of touching up the black and white pictures for the “Photo Drama” must have seemed ages ago, when the grim reality of death stared Herr Schumann in the face.
What did he do? He wrote the following letter:
“The third Senate of the Peoples Court in Berlin
Correction house
Brandenburg (Havel) Görden 22 October 1944
Great Senate!
With this I humbly allow myself to ask you to recommend that my plea of pardon from the death penalty get priority…
If possible I would give my support to the thousands of Germans, friends of our people, members of farming and agriculture, the war industry, the defense forces and the leaders of the party, the commerce which has supplied us and defended us at the front…
It has been far from me to carry out any political activity to destroy the defense moral, as I am accused of…
I have to admit that I through the writings of the IBV (International Bible students Association), was mislead to believe that the will of the Fürer, to save the German nation from ruin by Bolshevism, was a deception, that it was really about supporting the Catholic hierarchy’s pursuit for world domination. Today, however, when the fight for our people, our nation’s very existence stands at our very borders, I see that I, although too late must realize that all the political predictions of the Bible students is merely fantasies and false teachings which simply bring harm, this I have been considering.
Since the middle of this year I have through instructive conversations with my Gestapo official in charge, Herr Rabold come to realize that I instead of being of benefit to our people, have by this insane undertaking only caused harm and in addition plunged my family into nameless misery. My wish is that God some day will give me the opportunity to take part in the fight for our people and thus for my family, be this as it may, but I request the opportunity to do my duty as a German. This is my prayer.
Wilhelm Schumann“
Another of the arrested who received a death sentence was Johannes Schindler, a long standing member of the Biblestudents, from Dresden, Germany, with a long service as pioneer in Austria. A short story about Johannes Schindler is published in the 1989 yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses. The story has the headline” "I Will by No Means Leave You" . After painting the usual glossy picture of faithful service to Jehovah, the article ends with these words:
*** yb89 80-4 Austria ***
"I Will by No Means Leave You"
Until his passing away on December 23, 1986, Johannes Schindler was still in the ranks of the pioneers, then in the Federal Republic of Germany.”
Of course Herr Schindler never cared to tell his fellow Witnesses about his behavior in October 1944, when he sent the following letter to the Nazi court in Berlin:
“Correction house
Brandenburg (Havel) Görden 27 October 1944
“The third Senate of the Peoples Court in Berlin
Regarding request for pardon
The 10.17.44 I was sentenced to death by the III. Senate of the Peoples Court because of spreading banned Biblestudent writings. I beg of this high court…
When war broke out in 1939, I immediately volunteered to work in the War industry, and on September 12. 1939 I was accepted at the Mobilizing Reserve in the department of Fa. S. u. B. in Magdeburg, which was very important for the war effort. After a while I became Head inspector and was responsible for the final inspection of parts for the regulation control for Airplane engines, to see that they functioned as intended. I subjected myself to the task of inspecting these parts spurred by the sense of responsibility, conscious that even the slightest mistake could cost lives. Through my sense of duty and extraordinary conscientiousness it was achieved a higher rate of approved parts that earned the Firm the approval of the Air Ministry. Now I met Schumann in 1942, and besides it was a result of my good nature that I took the printed material to Berlin. As I have always said, I am merely interested in Biblical material and Christian material. I admit that in my heart I have fully rejected the International Bible Student’s Association and have completely gotten rid of their depraved political writings.
Johannes Schindler”
Not quite the faithful servant here, one could safely say. Was this worthy of a man whose story appears in 1989 under the heading "I Will by No Means Leave You"? A man who according to himself had with great enthusiasm worked for the Nazi war machine and taken such great care that the Airplane engine parts shouldn’t malfunction and cost human lives? He didn’t seem to think about the simple fact that sabotaging the engine parts would have spared many more lives. What did he think the Nazi’s used their planes for? Anyway, he could hardly be criticized for wanting to live and for doing whatever he could in order to be spared. But emerging after the war as an example of a “faithful” Jehovah's Witness, who stood “firm” against the Nazi’s is nothing but gross hypocrisy!
So the record show that of these 3 Jehovah's Witnesses only Franz Fritsche remained “committed” to his stand, whereas the other two wrote the petitions denouncing their faith were granted reprieve, and continued living their lives as “faithful” Jehovah's Witnesses who had taken a “firm stand” against the Nazi’s during the Hitler era. Of course this wasn’t in any way isolated incidents. Other Jehovah's Witnesses eager to save their lives wasn’t this fortunate. Johann Hörstgen was one of them. He was arrested in 1943 together with many other Bible students and sentenced to death. In a letter dated June 3, 1944 he writes a letter to the Senate President in the sixth Senate of the Peoples Court.
He ask them to consider his outstanding service to the “German people” where the Gestapo, thanks to his cooperation and help had been able to round up and arrest many Bible students. The court could easily verify this by contacting the Gestapo office in Essen, he writes. In this case however the court takes no notice of his plea, probably having no more stomach for traitors than anyone else does and he is executed.
Norm.
the swedish paper expressen september 20, 2001.. we were ordered to become americans.
the other night swedish fighter planes patrolled our skies.
according to the defense ministry this was a link in our heightened readiness towards terrorism.
Hi Cpiolo
You said:
A European (British) counterpoint to Norm's article
Just for the record, it isn't MY article.
Norm
the swedish paper expressen september 20, 2001.. we were ordered to become americans.
the other night swedish fighter planes patrolled our skies.
according to the defense ministry this was a link in our heightened readiness towards terrorism.
To all of you others who have commented.
This is just an interesting article I thought it would be worth sharing with non Swedish speaking people. I do not share all of his views. I do however agree with him that American/West European/Israeli lives seem to be much more worth than Arab, Asian in short brown peoples lives. I agree with him when he wonders why this is so?
For my own part, I am also quite sure that starting to bomb somewhere in the middle east or Afghanistan and kill some more people will only make this problem worse, much worse.
Norm.
the swedish paper expressen september 20, 2001.. we were ordered to become americans.
the other night swedish fighter planes patrolled our skies.
according to the defense ministry this was a link in our heightened readiness towards terrorism.
Rex,
You said:
Where would you be today Norm? Terrible, wicked America saves your fat behind from being a target or a prole (who works for the good of Stalin or the Fatherland) who lives in a one room shack.
You are an ungrateful jerk.America SHOULD abandon the rest of the world to it's own fate.
Except, 99% of the population are not agreed with your own skewed views....and you know it. Just remember this: YOU would not be on here whining without the freedom given you by loyal patriots in the Christian republics that you so despise.
Hypocrite!Rex
Your ignorance and lack of the most basic thinking skills seem staggering. What has WW2 got to do with this?
If I should use this kind of stupid reasoning, you should thank the French for being able to spout the crap you do and whine about all those who doesn't buy your insane claptrap about your Monster God.
Read this and weep:
http://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/chronicle/convergence.html
Norm.
the swedish paper expressen september 20, 2001.. we were ordered to become americans.
the other night swedish fighter planes patrolled our skies.
according to the defense ministry this was a link in our heightened readiness towards terrorism.
The Swedish paper Expressen September 20, 2001.
We were ordered to become Americans.
The other night Swedish fighter planes patrolled our skies. According to the defense ministry this was a link in our heightened readiness towards terrorism. In reality the fighter planes was just requisite’s in the political theatre which the prime minister and the media is writing with enthusiasm and cooperation. The title of the play is “We are all American’s” and it was started on the “Expressens” front page. The prime minister stated that the terror attack against the USA I reality was an “attack on us all”.
This is of course not true. The terrorist must have been dumbfound from surprise when they heard about the Swedish fighter planes in the North European night. More obvious targets than the World Trade Center, Pentagon and probably the White House is difficult to imagine. The Terrorists attacked the USA imperialism. No human being on earth could have misunderstood the message.
The will to become American isn’t very difficult to understand when it comes to the enthusiasts on for example the Svenska Dagbladet editorial page which has been writing in perverted glee all week because the terror attack has given an opening not only to express love for everything American but to hateful attacks on all perceived to be enemies of the USA. Those have got what they deserved, that’s what’s happen if you criticize the USA. Then you become a terrorist.
So we were all ordered to be Americans. Our grief which we were ordered to manifest collectively, was according to orders greater than any other incident after the second world war.
The terrorists that attacked USA killed an incomprehensible number of innocent people, some estimates goes up to ten thousand lives. It is about a third of the number of just as innocent people which were killed when Israel attacked Lebanon in the beginning of the eighties. That is if you count only the civilian lives. Uniformed lives are according to western standards of far less value. No one of the writers of editorials in Stockholm did however come up with the silly idea of one single minutes silence for those victims, just as little as we saw any of those bloodthirsty people make us all Lebanese.
USA is the great mass murderer of our time. Alone in the Vietnam war and its neighboring countries 4 million lives was lost. Not a single minute of silence in Sweden.
Racism explains a lot but not all the way if one should try to figure out the grotesque injustice we use when we value the lives counting the dead.
When President Clinton had difficulties with the public because Monica was to testify about the cigar, he sent cruise missiles over Afghanistan and Sudan. What those bombs actually hit in Afghanistan is unknown today. In Sudan the American weapons destroyed half of the country’s capacity for producing medicine, in a factory which was built with the support of the UN. Those actions probably took some of the heat off the embarrassing publicity around Clinton. After all he just killed a few anonymous Muslims, No minute of silence there either.
The current waving of the American flag is an even gloomier explanation than our unequal treatment of the value of human life. The flag wavers want us to go to war on the American side. It is us white in the rich world against the Muslim world. The American regime has explained that we are now at war. It is probably not a puny revenge we can prepare for. Several Stockholm newspapers have already joined us in the war through openly advocating both a crusade and religious war. That’s what it means when we are all Americans.
But alas, we are Europeans. We are the only power on earth that can stand up against the Americans if they carry out their alleged plans of a long and holy war. A war between the worlds white and the worlds Muslims would if nothing else lead to a disaster of Biblical proportions in our own Europe, where about 40 millions citizens are Muslims.
We are thus not Americans. We are Europeans. The terrorists from the hassled and frequently mass murdered Muslim world for obvious reasons attacked USA and not Europe. And they didn’t do it, as one of the editorial writers in one of the most esteemed morning papers suggested because they were envious of the US standard of living. But to revenge millions of murdered people.
Defense for terrorism? Of course not. My very modest suggestion is simply that we should look at American wars of terror with the same spectacles as we use on Muslim terrorism.
Written by Jan Guillau
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Scorpi,
You said:
Just because they may not believe that there is a creator and may refer to creation as a theory, does not discount that creation can be a fact.Scorpi
Creation doesn't qualify as a theory, it is a myth and therefore it belong in the realm of sheer faith.
Norm
...the attack on jericho by the israelites?.
yes, i know, this is controversial, but let's think about it.
we've been saying all week how the jw concept of armageddon is so horrible, for it teaches that god is about to do on a large-scale what we saw in new york and washington last week.
Hello Rex, I asked you a few simple questions:
Do you consider the WTC incident to be a blessing?
Could God have prevented it from happening? If he could and didn't, what do that tell us about God.? If God could NOT prevent it from happening, what do that tell us about God? According to the Bible not even a sparrow dies without God's knowlegde.
In response you bleated thus:
Hi Norm,
Are you now interested in becoming a real Christian? If not, I am not wasting much time with you. It is a fact that skeptical questions about anything never end. Answers for all questions do not exist.
Of course you wont waste any time with me, knowing you are unable to answer the most simple straightforward questions, like the ones I asked you.
Norm:Do you consider the WTC incident to be a blessing?
Rex: It is a tragedy. God will turn some events to the good (and many blessed events have happened since then: the love and compassion of the world and the unification of Americans as well as other peace-loving people is now apparent.
Wow! So you agree it is a tragedy? Well, we all KNOW it is a tragedy, We know that our fellow human beings are capable of love and compassion, but do God have to kill 6000 people to accomplish that? Do you go out and kill a lot of other people’s loved ones so their relatives can feel unified, love and compassion? Great “answer” Rex, your god must be extremely attractive.
Norm: Could God have prevented it from happening?
Rex: God can do anything except violate His own nature.
I see, so what you are saying here is that it is in God’s nature to turn his back to such horrible mass slaughter. Well, no surprises here. Wonderful God you worship.
Norm: If he could and didn't, what do that tell us about God.?
Rex: Not a thing. YOU want 'freedom from morality', to be the 'Captain of your fate', Norm. Now live with it and quit whining.
LOL, so if God had the power to stop this from happening and he didn’t it doesn’t tell us anything about him? Great “answer” Rex, and again, what a great God you worship! Then you show your true “Christian” color and launches into the usual gibberish about “morality”. As a moral entity I and most human beings are far above your God, when it comes to moral and ethics as we would have stopped the mass murder. Your monster God didn’t, but you still cling to you imaginary friend. To ask you questions that you are unable to answer, isn’t whining Rex, we leave all the whining to you.
Norm: If God could NOT prevent it from happening, what do that tell us about God? According to the Bible not even a sparrow dies without God's knowledge.
Rex: Read the book of Genesis, Norm. The answers are there. Read the gospels and see the ultimate answer. Read Romans and learn the theology of the church. Read John and see the deity of Christ. Read the letters of Paul and see the answers to man's many problems caused by his own depravity, which is squarely where the blame for all evil lies.
Read it many times Rex, there are no answers there except it show us what a despicable perverted God you worship. No human being has ever come close to the perversity and depravity of your God Rex. You of course know it but you still cling to the monster.
Norm: Please explain Rex.
Rex: It does you no good apparently. But thanks for the platform to inform the lurkers.
Of course it will do me good Rex, I would feel great if you for once could be honest, but as we can all see, you seem unable to be honest about the most simple things.
Rex: Where did I 'fail miserably'?
Oh, you have just demonstrated to us all including the lurkers, your total impotence and inability to address the most simple questions about your precious God, but you are right about one thing, with your every post and comment here you do inform the lurkers how utterly revolting your religion is. In this regard you are even better than the Watchtower.
Norm.
