were in that time of year again, where elections are in full swing.
i have heard so many commercials telling me what to think and vote on, that i am just counting the days to when it all goes away.
every once in a while there will be programs on the television, where the two candidates debate.
Great post Dragon. One of my favorite uncomfortable questions, which I got to ask a few times as I was leaving the org, was, "How does God direct the Watchtower Society? How does it really work? If they're not prophets, and they're not inspired, how are they different from other folks with religious ideas?" This was always good for some squirms.
Questions like this are good for those on the way out but still being visited by elders. Just ask sincerely, and see what they say.
...when i read some of the posts in this forum these days.
the founding fathers had it right when.
they setup an electoral college and opted for a republic.
...when i read some of the posts in this forum these days.
the founding fathers had it right when.
they setup an electoral college and opted for a republic.
Fundamentalist Christians seem to want two contradictory things: on the one hand they want to believe and preach that everyone who doesn't worship in the manner they approve will be tortured and/or killed by their God. On the other hand, they want to be considered nice, kind, loving people.
To the extent they are sincere, they are not "nice"; rather they are fanatical bigots.
It is certainly not true that:
Anyone who actually believes something is true automatically believes that contradicting beliefs are false.
Many people, and I include myself, are able to accept that definite answers about spiritual matters are hard to come by. I am willing to allow others to believe what they want without assuming that they will be killed for disagreeing with me. And, of course, I reserve the right to defend myself against, and to attack, bigots.
You also say:
But today we live in a New Age fantasy world where there is no absolute truth, where everything is relative, and where all beliefs are equally valid. And what sort of people are produced by that belief system? The worst sort of bigots
No part of this is true, and I in particular don't believe that "all beliefs are equally valid": yours and DJ's, for example, suck. What I do believe is that evidence and reason can be used to arrive valid conclusions. You'll notice that DJ, and now yourself, carefully avoid discussions of evidence. And neither of you have made a rational defense of your assertion that your God is going to torture and/or kill me. You could at least apologize!
Next, you say something I can agree with:
I think any reasonable person can clearly see who the intolerant, dogmatic bigot in this discussion has been.
I agree with this, and invite reasonable people to express themselves.
Finally, you and DJ both take issue with my coarse language. Well, some people say "can't we all just get along" and other people say "you're a dipfuck". I happen to be one of the latter, and am glad Simon's forum can contain most of us. In my defense, I can only point out that DJ speaks sweetly, and has vile beliefs whilst I speak coarsely and have far more tolerant beliefs.
this isn't jw related or even of a serious topic, but i know some of you can help me.
(sixy are you out there???
a few months ago i resigned from my well-paying corporate sales job to pursue something that would satisfy my soul instead of eating it up.
Andi, you should go to www.photo.net before you make any decision. It's one of the best sites of any kind on the web, and you will find in depth discussion of digital and other cameras.
Good luck on your new venture.
...when i read some of the posts in this forum these days.
the founding fathers had it right when.
they setup an electoral college and opted for a republic.
DJ, I'm not disgusted with you because of issues in my life. I'm disgusted with you because you and other fundies smugly assert that your God is going to torture and/or kill anyone who does not believe what you believe, and offer no reasonable evidence for that assertion. To repeat an earlier comment of mine: it's not enough that you be right, all others must be wrong. That disgusts me.
I don't care if you disagree with my beliefs because I am at peace where I am now.
This is patently untrue. You are trapped in a belief system that insists that you will be tortured and/or killed (I should trademark that phrase) unless you maintain a peculiar set of beliefs.
But tell you what, DJ, you can have the last word on this. Either you're too stupid to argue with, or I'm being gulled by a troll. As I review your posts on this thread and elsewhere, I am a little suspicious of your ex-JW status. You seem more like someone sniffing around for someone to preach to, taking advantage of the damaged people wandering these halls. Of course, I have no evidence for this - it's rather like your belief in God! Except that I admit that my suspicion is unsupported by facts.
You are in my thoughts and well wishes are sent your way.
I cannot say the same about you. It still irritates me that you blithely assume your God hates me enough to torture and/or kill me. I do not admire your imitation of kindness and sincerity, since your beliefs and speech flatly refute it.
ive been reading these posts and some on other websites for awhile now, trying to figure things out for myself.
im still a jw, a non-believing one if you will.
i more or less grew up as a jw, my father was an alcoholic and my mother became a jw when i was a kid.
I also lurked for a loooooong time.
ive been reading these posts and some on other websites for awhile now, trying to figure things out for myself.
im still a jw, a non-believing one if you will.
i more or less grew up as a jw, my father was an alcoholic and my mother became a jw when i was a kid.
Hey, this is a great post. Congratulations on your continued recovery and facing up to life's difficulties.
i recieved this email from a customer of mine i have become close to.
she has heard a small portion of the horrid details of my past with the jehovah's witness religion.
today we were talking and that dasterdly topic of religion came up again.
Ken, SaintSatan answered for me quite well. I would also add that skeptics have committed far fewer repugnant acts. There have been no crusades in the name of secular humanism.
Your rapier wit and skilled dialectic have completely unmanned me. Now, thank God, I see the error of my ways.
...when i read some of the posts in this forum these days.
the founding fathers had it right when.
they setup an electoral college and opted for a republic.
Since you just can't stand it when you ask this question and it goes unresponded to, I'll give you my thoughts. You may disagree and that is fine but I am weary of the attacks on my belief. I am not attacking your aethism or agnosticism or whatever your beliefs are. I only request the same respect in return. I do not come here to debate or argue with people.
You do not respect my beliefs, you believe that your God is going to torture and/or kill me for having them. Oh, and I think you must have meant "atheism", not "aethism"; I don't even know what "aethism" is.
The question is......."will those who don't believe as you do about Christ" answer of course not, I don't know if you even know what I personally believe about Christ, so the question is mute. Next part: "will your God kill them or not send them to heaven because of that non-belief" sorry, this is still vague.
You mean, the question is moot. And I certainly wasn't being vague. Abrasive and "coarse" maybe, but not vague. You should probably get a dictionary or something.
I think that perhaps you meant to ask, if people who have been offerred the free gift of salvation continually refuse this gift and slap the hand who offered it to them.....will they go to heaven??
Don't rephrase my question into a straw man. If you don't know what a straw man is, find a book or web site about logical fallacies.
My answer: If I were GOD, they wouldn't. I hate it when my kids don't get to the dinner table after I call them several times!
So you would kill them or torture them to get even? Creepy.
OK, we all know that I'm not God.....
Yep. Although you seem to think you have a direct line to him.
so my answer is NO, I don't think that they will be granted eternal life, they rejected it. It is basically that simple. My God is just. He doesn't desire for anyone to perish but to turn to him for salvation.
God: "Do what I say you weak little creation of mine, or I'll torture and/or kill your ass. Oh, and I'm not going to just tell you directly what to do, I'm going to hide it in a contradictory, confusing book with a funky compilation history, and THEN I'm going to allow all sorts of other books to be written that will confuse the issue miserably - oh, and I won't even make sure that this book is available everywhere. You poor saps."
DJ: "My god is just!"
The whole point of Christianity is to help us to see that our works are worthless in gaining eternal life. It is a gift that Christ died for us. Our good works that flow from a loving and thankful spirit are evidence of this. It cannot be earned.
Um, any evidence for all this?
Why would a buddist who may live a clean life and all that jazz....who goes to pray to an idol be worthy of eternal life. He would be worth eternal life as much as the sinner down the road.
DJ, to be so completely ignorant about a religion that you are condemning is reprehensible enough. To flaunt this ignorance is inexcusably evil. You might want to read a book or two about Buddhism (note spelling), or even a few primary texts, such as the Dhammapada.
Don't you see? It is not about you or me or her or him? It is about Christ, he died so that you may live. I don't deserve eternal life. You don't either. No one does. We have all sinned. Yet God has provided this gift to those who will humble themselves to the realization that we could never be worthy on our own. It is not about who is righteous and who is not. None of us are righteous. Not even one. Our righteousness is through Christ. This is humbling, not exalting, in any way shape or form.
ogdammit, this is just nuts. See previous comments re: evidence and your God's apparent attitude.
Ok, I'm done here. Sheesh.
You mean, I can't be saved!?
BTW DannyBear, thanks for pitching in on this. A poker game kept me away from this delightful discussion last night. And I won! Must be that good old secular humanist mojo... or, could it be... Satan?
