Posts by Vidqun

29

How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....

by EndofMysteries in

my reason for leaving or fading is because after actually reading the bible, i began to gain understanding and seeing everywhere what the bible teaches is not what jw's teach.

there is no need to bring up 'apostate' material, the history of jw's, etc, as that sets up a mental block (if you ever were a strong jw you may remember yourself it wouldn't work).

the foundation of the faith is that the bible is the final authority, the bible trumps everything, and that only jw's follow the bible everyone else twists it to their traditions and customs.

Vidqun

Here's some personal research I did on the subject a year or so ago:

From the time of Jewish historian Josephus, “the land of Magog” has been associated with the Scythian tribes found in North Eastern Europe and Central Asia (Josephus, Antiquities, pp. 30, 31). Its definite location being uncertain, this is an indication that it is here used in a symbolic sense. More specific are those associated with Gog’s crowed. Amongst his troops are Gomer and Beth-togarmah “from the remotest parts of the north”, Persians (Iranians), Cushites (black Africans), and Putians (Libyans). As seen, all of these are allies of the King of the North (cf. Dan. 11:43). In the Gog and Magog tradition, a number of nations will be congregated against the people living on “the mountains of Israel”. This will occur in the “latter part of the days” (cf. Is. 66:7; Ez. 38:8, 11, 16, 18; Dan. 8:9-12; 11:31).

This event has been described in detail by the prophet Ezekiel (38, 39). Gog of the land Magog is identified with the head chieftain of Meshech and Tubal. Van Hoonacker, ZA, 28 (1914), 336 derives the name “Gog” from Sumerian gug, “darkness”, and thus Magog = the land of darkness and Gog = the personification of darkness (TDOT, vol. II, p. 422). This is an indication that Gog should be associated with the Prince of Darkness, Satan the Devil himself (cf. Rev. 20:7, 8). So Gog's crowd would be those nations under direct control of Satan the Devil. It is noteworthy that “Edom, Moab and the main part of the sons of Ammon” are missing from this crowd. The remainder of these would have been assimilated by Israel (cf. Dan. 11:41). Individuals from these nations would throw in their weight behind the anointed remnant.

Gog, in imitation of Jehovah God, would turn back his hand “upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations” for the purpose of inflicting judicial punishment on them (Ez. 38:12; cf. Ps. 81:14). On behalf of Jehovah, Ezekiel (38:17) then poses the following question: “Are you the same one of whom I spoke in the former days by the hand of my servants the prophets of Israel?” Former prophets might have mentioned Gog, but it was never recorded in the Bible. The name Magog occurs once in the Table of Nations (Gen. 10:2) and once in Chronicles (1 Chron. 1:5). Keil & Delitzsch suggest that this might refer to a type, encompassing all enemies of Israel.

The context of the passage in Revelation indicates that it would be fulfilled after the thousand years (cf. Rev. 20:3, 7, 8), whereas Ez. 38 & 39 point to "the latter part of the days" (Ez. 38:16; cf. Dan. 2:28; Is. 2:1, etc.).

Lars, Nazi-like individuals might be part of Gog's crowd. They certainly qualify. However, like simon17 says, it's open to interpretation.

51

Will the Governing Body Ever Make a Big Enough Mistake?

by What Now? in

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i am not scared of armageddon anymore.

Vidqun

There is another possibility for those that believe in the God of the Bible. If He is righteous, just and perfect, He will not tolerate the above. Throughout the Bible, He warns that He cares about widows and orphans. So if you abuse (or stumble or harm) even the smallest of these, you wil have to deal with Him.

Remember also what happened to Israelites when they went off the rails. First time, the Babylonian exile, with only a remnant surviving. Ezekiel explained the reasons for their punishment. Second time, after killing His Son, the Romans would destroy Jerusalem, and with it the existing Jewish system. During the Second World War, the Jews were left to their own devices. God did not come to their rescue because He had rejected them as His representatives. So, to be God's chosen nation is certainly a hard act to follow. Strictly speaking, none of us would qualify because of our imperfection.

That's why JWs as an organization is going to be destroyed, even before Babylon the Great. There are many prophecies pointing to this. That would level the playing field somewhat. At the end, your relationship with God will matter, not the group to which you previously belonged. That would be fair and what one would expect from a fair God. The great crowd coming out of the great tribulation, which cannot be counted (definitely not seven odd million), will be from all nations and tribes and tongues. So no, I don't think their demise will come from mistakes (or one big mistake). God will allow them to be disbanded by using the political rulers of the earth as His instrument.

8

Attn: Nurses, Psychologists, anybody in the Medical Field

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

i have a female friend that has been having chronic earaches.

she has been going to the health clinic frequently lately.

i saw her today and she is very hyperactive and feeling good.

Vidqun

For chronic earache apply one drop of pure alcohol (buy over counter at chemist) in ear. It sterilizes the ear and numbs the pain. Put cotton bud in ear for it not to leak out. Even safe to use for children. Virtually no side-effects. For what it's worth.

89

New CO talk: Be loyal to Org. even if you get weird instructions or can prove them wrong doctrinally!

by sir82 in

jw
friends

theme was something about "loyalty to jehovah's visible organization".. i have neither the time nor inclination to summarize the whole thing, but a few points stood out:.

even if it causes you personal hardship.

example: joshua & caleb returned from spy trip to promised land with good report, but were "outvoted" by the other 10 spies.

Vidqun

Most recent CO visit: He uses the example of Moses to explain that a JW should not pursue higher learning. This application is all wrong. As the son of Pharoah's daughter, Moses "was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (cf. Acts 7:22). He went through all that Egyptian learning institutions could offer. In fact he did go to "University" and remained true to his Jewish faith. So, the example of Moses encourages one to send one's children to university. Especially beneficial would be if they could study from home. Then it would be no different to sending them to school.

More on topic: In the Watchtower article "Are You known by Jehovah?" the example of Korah and his followers is used to provide "a serious warning for elders and others in the congregation today," thus encouraging all to show "humility and submission". But the way I read it, this was a coup d' etat in the making, and Korah and followers were killed for attempting to wrest power from Moses and Aaron. I don’t think many JWs or ex-JWs few would attempt a coup d' etat in the congregation or organization, so the comparison is somewhat off the mark.

The TMS book, p. 240, warns: "Proper use of these teaching aids can enrich your talk, touch the lives of people, and make instruction memorable. Improperly used, they may divert attention from valuable instruction." I think both examples "divert attention from valuable instruction." I call that sloppy research. Anymore out there that I might have missed?

Illustrations/Examples that teach?

by Vidqun in

first of all, the co uses the example of moses to explain that a jw should not pursue higher learning.

this application is wrong.

as the son of pharoah's daughter, moses "was instructed in all the wisdom of the egyptians" (cf.

Vidqun

First of all, the CO uses the example of Moses to explain that a JW should not pursue higher learning. This application is wrong. As the son of Pharoah's daughter, Moses "was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (cf. Acts 7:22). He went through all that Egyptian learning institutions could offer. In fact he did go to "University" and remained true to his Jewish faith. In fact, the example of Moses encourages one to send one's children to university. Especially beneficial would be if they could study from home. Then it would be no different to sending them to school.

Secondly, in the Watchtower article "Are You known by Jehovah?" the example of Korah and his followers is used to provide "a serious warning for elders and others in the congregation today," thus encouraging all to show "humility and submission". But the way I read it, this was a coup d' etat in the making, and Korah and followers were killed for attempting to wrest power from Moses and Aaron. Very few would attempt a coupt d' etat in the congregation or organization, so the comparison is off the mark.

The TMS book, p. 240, warns: "Proper use of these teaching aids can enrich your talk, touch the lives of people, and make instruction memorable. Improperly used, they may divert attention from valuable instruction." I think both example "divert attention from valuable instruction." I call that sloppy research. Anymore out there that I might have missed?

25

Jehovah's Witnesses are entitled to their own OPINION

by Terry in

jw
friends

we've all heard the old saying: "everybody is entitled to their own opinion.".

but, my toothache is objective pain.. .

to be of rational value, evidence must be objective.

Vidqun

Terry, I agree. Here one can generalize. All religious thought (theology) should be classified under "opinion" until it is proved right or wrong.

After reading Emanuel Tov's Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (specifically p. 22), I had to work out for myself what it means to be objective/subjective. This is the conclusion I have arrived at, right or wrong:

A definition of objectivity is: “involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena”, e.g., objective awareness or data (Webster). Unfortunately the scope of the theologian [in this case the teachings of JW] is limited, having to rely on the Biblical account, historical sources, as well as commentaries, to the detriment of true objectivity. A definition of subjectivity is: “characteristic of belonging to reality as perceived rather than independent of mind” or “modified or affected by a personal view, experience or background”, e.g., subjective judgement (Webster). Although one should try to be as objective as possible, it must be conceded that subjectivity pervades all walks of life, especially religious thought. E.g. objective elements pertain to the description of the Biblical text as well as comparitive historical data. However, the disciplines of textual criticism, translation as well as exegesis, fall squarely in the subjective camp. In addition, a combination of subjective criteria and intuition is necessary to establish the importance of differences in ancient and modern translations, compared to the MT. On the whole, something considered a solid fact by one person is contested by another. Because of the nature of Biblical interpretation, it attests to a great deal of subjectivity, which should be taken into account when appraising such material. Hope it helps.

66

Was The Internet The Clincher For You To Mentally Leave The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i think it was for me.. i knew a lot of the history of the bible students, russell, rutherford and the "old light".

.

once i could see all of the overwhelming evidence right in front of my eyes, there was no ignoring the reality..

Vidqun

Without the Internet I would never have known about the Watchtower riding the beast for ten years. They stopped doing that because they were exposed. Not, I'm sorry I did what was bad, rather, I'm sorry that I was caught doing it. But see, I've stopped now. Also thanks to the computer, mobile phones, word processing, e-mail, library programs, Amazon.com, etc. Without those, my eyes would have remained closed.

161

What Are You Reading?

by zoiks in

jw
friends

ok, here's my current list:.

i just finished the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins, and am almost finished crisis of conscience by...some guy.. currently in hand, i have:.

the power of myth, joseph campbell and bill moyers.

Vidqun

Compatibility View On. Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible by Emanuel Tov (3rd edition).

161

What Are You Reading?

by zoiks in

jw
friends

ok, here's my current list:.

i just finished the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins, and am almost finished crisis of conscience by...some guy.. currently in hand, i have:.

the power of myth, joseph campbell and bill moyers.

Vidqun

8

WT: Only JWs and idiots will survive Armageddon...

by Alfred in

since there is compelling and overwhelming evidence that jehovah is the true and living god, creator and supreme sovereign of the universe, the plea of ignorance cannot be admitted in its full latitude except for idiots.

the atheists cannot plead ignorance.

the agnostics cannot plead ignorance.

Vidqun

I also had a problem with "Who will survive Armageddon?" Here's how I see it. All religious organizations, including the Witnesses, are going to be destroyed before Armageddon breaks. The anointed is going to be killed, or die of natural causes, so they won't be around. Then the parable of the sheep and goats goes into effect. Jesus is appointed as judge, so he will decide who qualifies as sheep or goat. Who will he choose? Those with the right heart condition who will be an asset to the newly established kingdom, those whose names have been written in the Book of Life.

And this is the beauty of the theory: You cannot claim to be a Jehovah's Witness (or of any other religion for that matter) and expect to be saved. Jehovah's Witnesses (or church) organizations won't exist. All persons alive at that point will be on an equal footing before God. That will make it more fair, won't it?

Certain indicators point me in this direction. First and foremost, God is fair to a perfect degree. Secondly, JW, as an organization, is going to be destroyed (Rev. 11:7, 8). Babylon the Great is also going to be destroyed (Rev. 17:16). The fact that the "great crowd" of Rev. 7 consists of different nations and tribes and tongues, and cannot be counted. Why uncountable? Because it's number will only be decided at the end. Thirdly, God is going to make all things new (Rev. 21:3, 4). That means that he cannot use existing structures or organizations because they are imperfect and in any case are going to be destroyed.

The conclusion: Those you expect to be there, won't be there. Those that you won't expect, will be there. Comments, please.