smiddt, the one in Zechariah crops up in the literature now and then. One scripture that stood out in the nineties was Isaiah 60:22: "The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation." Others that were quite popular are the doves flying in to their dove cotes (Is. 60:8) and the tent pegs that need to shift to accomodate all those coming in (Is. 54:2). An elder told me he believes while there is an increase Jehovah it means that Jehovah is blessing their work. If there is a serious decline in converts in the near future, be assured, they will find new scriptures to back that up, e.g., the love of the greater number will cool off (Matt. 24:12), etc.
Posts by Vidqun
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11Does the WT still use Zech.8:23 as a last days prophecy ? In veiw of the fact (evidently) the numbers of converts are decreasing worldwide ?
by smiddy inthis is a scripture that was used a lot during the 70`s & 80`s proving that the end was so close,and it was to culminate in a grand influx before the great tribulation.
" it will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold,yes ,they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a jew,saying,"we will go with you people for we have heard that god is with you people.".
when you look at the reality of the situation in this day....,their seems to be a marked decline in worldly converts in christendoms lands.....,mainly baptisms coming from young born ins,..... and certainly no marked increases from either asian, oriental, or other non christian lands,that would seem to indicate another failed prediction/prophecy we can credit to the f&ds class.
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Watchtower's United Nations Association
by Celestial intemporarily, there's confusion until i get the facts straight: .
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php .
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/default.html .
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Vidqun
00DAD, I thought I'd leave the research to Celestial. Here's most of them at short notice, seeing that you asked so nicely.
To take out membership for a library card? There you would exchange your birthright for a pot of lentil stew, i.e., a library card (cf. Hebr. 12:16). I'd call that despising sacred things according to WT theology.
w02 5/1 11
8 Why did Paul link Esau’s actions to fornication? Because having the mentality of Esau can lead a person to fail to appreciate sacred things. In turn, this can result in serious sins, such as fornication. Hence, each of us might ask: ‘Am I sometimes tempted to barter my Christian inheritance—everlasting life—for something as transient as a bowl of lentil stew? Perhaps without realizing it, do I despise sacred things?’
w89 12/15 14
Becoming disgruntled, dissatisfied, finding fault with the way things are done in the congregation can be like a “poisonous root” that can quickly spread and poison the wholesome thoughts of others in the congregation. We can counteract such negative thoughts by contemplating the countless blessings that the truth has brought into our life. (Psalm 40:5) Another danger is that of having immoral tendencies or a ‘lack of appreciation for sacred things, like Esau.’ (Hebrews 12:16) Paul links these two dangers together, since the one can easily lead to the other.
And it was hammered into our heads, friendship with the word is enmity with God (James 4:4). Here he is referring to "spiritual fornication" (cf. 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 6:9, 10).
w97 11/15 19, 20
4 Worldliness, envy, and pride existed among certain early Christians. (James 4:4-6) James calls some “adulteresses” because they were friends of the world and thus guilty of spiritual adultery. (Ezekiel 16:15-19, 25-45)
Rs 438
Jas. 4:4: “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Because Christians are imperfect, they may at times get soiled through contacts with the world. But when counseled from God’s Word, they repent and correct their ways. However, if some, by deliberate choice, ally themselves with the world or imitate its spirit, they show that they no longer are true Christians but have become part of the world that is at enmity with God. )
It-1 864
SymbolicUse. Jehovah God spoke of the nation of Israel in covenant relationship to him as “a wife.” (Isa 54:5, 6) When the nation became unfaithful to him, ignoring him and turning to other nations such as Egypt and Assyria for help and entering into alliances with them, Israel was like an unfaithful wife, an adulteress, a prostitute, one carrying on fornication promiscuously. (Eze 16:15, 25-29) Likewise, if Christians in a dedicated relationship to God, or professing such a relationship, are unfaithful by engaging in false worship or by being friends of the world, they are called adulteresses. —Jas 4:4.
It-2 867
The apostle Paul associates Satan with “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” and he speaks of them as “the world rulers of this darkness.” (Eph 6:11, 12) As a governing force in the invisible realm immediately about the earth, Satan is “the ruler of the authority of the air.” (Eph 2:2) In Revelation he is shown to be the one “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Re 12:9) The apostle John said that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1Jo 5:19) He is therefore “the ruler of this world.” (Joh 12:31) That is why James wrote that “the friendship with the world is enmity with God.”—Jas 4:4.
Tp 124-126
22 So, the Bible shows we have a clear choice. At James 4:4 we read: “Do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” God also has his standards for friendship, and they are not in harmony with those of the world of sinful mankind. —Psalm 15:1-5.
Abomination causing desolation
In the book of Daniel one distinguishes two abominations. Jesus, in his discourse on the Mount of Olives, indicated that Rome and its Pax Romana would be the “[great] abomination causing desolation” (cf. Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Luk. 21:20).
w99 5/1 14-15
3 After outlining the sign, Jesus said: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.”—Matthew 24:15-21.
4 The accounts by Mark and Luke provide supplemental details. Where Matthew uses “standing in a holy place,” Mark 13:14 says “standing where it ought not.” Luke 21:20 adds Jesus’ words: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” This helps us to see that the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple—a place holy to the Jews but no longer the place holy to Jehovah—which began in 66 C.E. Complete desolation occurred when the Romans destroyed both city and temple in 70 C.E. What was “ the disgusting thing ” back then? And how did it ‘stand in a holy place’? Answers to these questions will help to clarify the modern-day fulfillment.
5 Jesus urged readers to use discernment. Readers of what? Likely, of Daniel chapter 9. There we find a prophecy indicating when Messiah would appear and foretelling that he would be “cut off” after three and a half years. The prophecy says: “Upon the wing of disgustingthings there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”—Daniel 9:26, 27; see also Daniel 11:31; 12:11.
6 The Jews thought that this applied to the profanation of the temple by Antiochus IV about 200 years earlier. However, Jesus showed otherwise, urging discernment because “the disgusting thing” was yet to appear and stand in “a holy place.” It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come in 66 C.E. with distinctive ensigns. Such standards, long in use, were virtual idols and were disgusting to the Jews. When, though, would they ‘stand in a holy place’? That happened when the Roman army, with its ensigns, attacked Jerusalem and its temple, which the Jews considered holy. The Romans even began to undermine the wall of the temple area. Truly, what had long been disgusting now stood in a holy place!—Isaiah 52:1; Matthew 4:5; 27:53; Acts 6:13.
The “[ultimate] abomination causing desolation”, is a creation of both the King of the North and South (cf. Dan. 8:13; 11:31). This refers to the League of Nations, and the United Nations, which as a peacekeeper, stands in the place of God’s kingdom, an abomination in God’s sight (cf. Ps. 46:8, 9; 72:3, 7, 8; Is. 2:4; Mic. 4:3).
Dp 269
‘THEDISGUSTINGTHINGISPUTINPLACE’
23 When the end of the second world war was in sight, another development occurred, just as God’s angel had foretold. “They will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.” (Daniel 11:31b) Jesus had also spoken of “the disgusting thing.” In the first century, it proved to be the Roman army that came to Jerusalem in 66 C.E. to put down Jewish rebellion.—Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27.
24 What “disgusting thing” has been “put in place” in modern times? Apparently, it is a “disgusting” counterfeit of God’s Kingdom. This was the League of Nations , the scarlet-colored wild beast that went into the abyss, or ceased to exist as a world-peace organization, when World War II erupted. (Revelation 17:8) “The wild beast,” however, was “to ascend out of the abyss.” This it did when the United Nations, with 50 member nations including the former Soviet Union, was established on October 24, 1945. Thus “the disgusting thing” foretold by the angel—the United Nations —was put in place.
Beast that ascends out of the abyss
This is the beast that “was, but is not, and yet is destined to ascend out of the abyss” (of inactivity). After World War I it would start off as the League of Nations, disappearing in the clouds of World War II. Afterwards it would be resurrected as the United Nations (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11).
w99 5/1 17-18
15 Revelation depicts “ a scarlet-colored wild beast ” that exists for a time, disappears, and then returns. (Revelation 17:3, 8) This beast is supported by world rulers. Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a “ disgusting thing ”) and that is now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this “beast” to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation.
16 Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the “standing in a holy place” still ahead of us? Evidently so. While “the disgusting thing” made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future. As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the “standing in a holy place” would develop, so do present-day Christians. Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details.
Revelation Climax, ch. 18, p. 246.
Ascending outoftheAbyss
6 The scarlet-colored wild beast did indeed climb out of the abyss. On June 26, 1945, with noisy fanfare in San Francisco, U.S.A., 50 nations voted to accept the Charter of the United Nations organization. This body was “to maintain international peace and security.” There were many similarities between the League and the UN. TheWorldBookEncyclopedia notes: “In some ways, the UN resembles the League of Nations, which was organized after World War I . . . Many of the nations that founded the UN had also founded the League. Like the League, the UN was established to help keep peace between nations. The main organs of the UN are much like those of the League.” The UN, then, is actually a revival of the scarlet-colored wild beast. Its membership of some 190 nations far exceeds that of the League’s 63; it has also taken on broader responsibilities than its predecessor.
7 At first, great hopes were expressed for the UN. This was in fulfillment of the angel’s words: “Andwhentheyseehowthewildbeastwas,butisnot,andyetwillbepresent,thosewhodwellontheearthwillwonderadmiringly,buttheirnameshavenotbeenwrittenuponthescrolloflifefromthefoundingoftheworld.”(Revelation17:8b) Earth’s dwellers have admired this new colossus, operating from its imposing headquarters on New York’s East River.
One law
Close cooperation between the “little flock” and “the other sheep” would be prefigured by arrangements for the Passover celebration of ancient Israel. The Israelite, as well as the alien resident, had to observe the Passover: “There should exist one statute for YOU people, both for the alien resident and for the native of the land.” (Num. 9:14)
ws chapt. 14, para 4
4 Being inscribed upon the heart, those laws would be less likely to cease being loved by those who obeyed them. If those laws were put “in their mind,” they would be less likely to forget them. Hence, the keepers of those laws say, in the words of Psalm 119:97: “How I do love your law! All day long it is my concern.” From their most inward being, they set their affections upon Jehovah’s laws as given through his Mediator, Jesus Christ. Thus, with the right motivation, they determine to keep those precious laws . This applies both to the “little flock” in the new covenant and to the “great crowd” of “other sheep” who are, not in the new covenant, but under it .—Compare 1 John 5:3; John 14:15.
Isaiah Book: 56:6—Who are“theforeigners,”andinwhatwaysarethey“layingholdof[Jehovah’s]covenant”? “The foreigners” are Jesus’ “other sheep.” (John 10:16) They lay hold of the new covenant in that they obey the laws related to that covenant, cooperate fully with the arrangements made through it, partake of the same spiritual food as anointed Christians do, and support them in the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work.
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Watchtower's United Nations Association
by Celestial intemporarily, there's confusion until i get the facts straight: .
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php .
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/default.html .
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Vidqun
Celestial, some homework for you. Feel free to research it on the CD-ROM. As far as I know, nothing has changed, no "new light" has flashed forth. As a Witness you are even allowed to work for these beasts, e.g., clerical or administrative work in government departments and UN, but you cannot take out membership to join them. That's a no-no. You are not allowed taking out membership or buy a card, to belong to a political party. To take out membership for a library card? There you would exchange your birthright for a pot of lentil stew, i.e., a library card (cf. Hebr. 12:16). And it was hammered into our heads, friendship with the word is enmity with God (James 4:4). Here he is referring to "spiritual fornicatioin" (cf. 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 6:9, 10).
Abomination causing desolation
In the book of Daniel one distinguishes two abominations. Jesus, in his discourse on the Mount of Olives, indicated that Rome and its Pax Romana would be the “[great] abomination causing desolation” (cf. Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Luk. 21:20). The “[ultimate] abomination causing desolation”, is a creation of both the King of the North and South (cf. Dan. 8:13; 11:31). This refers to the League of Nations, and the United Nations, which as a peacekeeper, stands in the place of God’s kingdom, an abomination in God’s sight (cf. Ps. 46:8, 9; 72:3, 7, 8; Is. 2:4; Mic. 4:3).
Beast that ascends out of the abyss
This is the beast that “was, but is not, and yet is destined to ascend out of the abyss” (of inactivity). After World War I it would start off as the League of Nations, disappearing in the clouds of World War II. Afterwards it would be resurrected as the United Nations (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11). This is the beast that would kill the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7-10). In the book of Daniel it would be given the title “the [ultimate] abomination causing desolation” (Dan. 8:13; 11:31). This beast stands in the place of God’s kingdom, therefore an abomination in God’s eyes (cf. Ps. 46:8, 9; 72:3, 7, 8; Is. 2:4; Mic. 4:3).
One law
Close cooperation between the “little flock” and “the other sheep” would be prefigured by arrangements for the Passover celebration of ancient Israel. The Israelite, as well as the alien resident, had to observe the Passover: “There should exist one statute for YOU people, both for the alien resident and for the native of the land.” (Num. 9:14)
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Notes from 2 day assembly - "Thought Control"
by baltar447 inthese notes were sent to me from a close friend who is biding his time to leave.. some of this we have read about already, the demo with the two brothers and the damage control they are doing over the ridiculous generation nonsense, but the thing about "thought control"tm i had not heard before...... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
you learn something new every day at the 'sembly.
today at the 'sembly we were educated on the importance of, and i quote, "practicing thought control" .
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Vidqun
To come back to cooking the books, the young elder I spoke to said that while there is increase, Jehovah is blessing the Org. If that is a general belief, the numbers will carry on increasing, no matter what. Does anyone know whether there had been such statements made from the platform?
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Trying to do the RIGHT Thing.
by TOTH inand i am trying to talk myself out of doing something shitty.. as you may be aware, my father in law is married to a real piece of shit.
she neglects and abuses him and he is sick and elderly and now is addicted to pescription pain medication.
yet she continues to lead the cngregation by her "exemplary theocratic behavior" by being a regular pioneer and carting the sisters around to every place they need to go.
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Vidqun
Toth, Do not stoop to her level. Show her that you are the better person by treating her like your neighbor (even if you have to grit your teeth in the process). Hopefully she will become ashamed and pull herself toward herself, and start living according those Christian principles she professes. But of course, if she is a schizophrenic, wonderful in front of other people, and horrible to her close family, then there's not much you can do but to encourage her to get professional help.
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Who Knows The Exact Current Interpretation of "Generation" Please!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inwould someone please explain the current interpretation of the generation.
this topic is one that is causing alot of confussion and turmoil.
jwn, you.
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Vidqun
Beast that ascends out of the abyss
This is the beast that “was, but is not, and yet is destined to ascend out of the abyss” (of inactivity). After World War I it would start off as the League of Nations, disappearing in the clouds of World War II. Afterwards it would be resurrected as the United Nations (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11). This is the beast that would kill the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7-10). In the book of Daniel it would be given the title “the [ultimate] abomination causing desolation” (Dan. 8:13; 11:31). This beast stands in the place of God’s kingdom, therefore an abomination in God’s eyes (cf. Ps. 46:8, 9; 72:3, 7, 8; Is. 2:4; Mic. 4:3).
In Rev. 13:15 the false prophet gave breath to the image of the beast (image of beast + breath = new beast) > scarlet-colored wild beast (Rev. 17:8)
What do we learn frim this:
1) The beast that ascends out of the abyss is one beast (Rev. 11:7; Rev. 17:8).
2) That means that Rev. 11:7 cannot be applied to period 1914-1918 (League was created after that date).
3) Now for the warning: Rev. 11:7 has a future fulfillment in accordance with the rest of the Scriptures (Ezek. 39, 40; Dan. 11:40-45; Zech. 13:7-14:5; cf. Rev. 11:7, 8). That is what happens when you consort with the UN beast. You are devoured.
This is where Matt. 24:15, 16 and Mark 13:14 come in. These prophecies have been fulfilled. Now is the time to flee. Where do you flee to?
As discussed on a previous thread (which you don't agree with). One cannot flee to God's organization, it has been compromised. The following places you should NOT flee to: The "mountains of Israel" are going to be invaded by Gog (Ezek. 38:8). The "beautiful land" (= the land of the Decoration) is going to be invaded by the King of the North (Dan. 11:41, 45). Jerusalem (= spiritual Jerusalem) is going to be captured (Zech. 13:7, 8; 14:1, 2). The two witnesses are going to be killed by the "beast from the abyss" (= the UN) (Rev. 11:7). Paul said: "Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing" (cf. Is. 52:11). By consorting with the beast, JWs have placed them on the same level as Babylon the Great (Rev. 18:4). The only place one can flee to is mentioned at Zech. 14:3-5 (for additional reading: Dan. 8:11-14).
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4/15 WT - WTS Pridefully says they can " Guide " JW's past "Armageddon "
by flipper inthis thread is for everybody and everybody is welcome to comment on it .
however i'm going to direct my thoughts and comments in this initial post to lurking jehovah's witnesses who may read on this board and may be sitting on the fence pondering on whether to stay in the jehovah's witnesses organization.
also to newer members who may have joined the board.. in this latest 4/15 wt in the article , " jehovah knows how to deliver his people " it conveys the thought that only the wt society ( through god's help ) will be guiding any jw's through the alleged " armageddon " considered god's war against the wicked.
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Vidqun
I agree with Dozy. They must first make up their mind about "the disgusting thng causing desolation." At the moment it is standing in a holy place, "where it ought not" (cf. Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14), according to Watchtower theology. Surprise, surprise, it has been standing in their midst from 1992 to 2002. These prophecies have thus been fulfilled. Perhaps now is a good time to flee. But where do they flee to? Paul said: "Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing" (cf. Is. 52:11). By consorting with the beast, JWs have placed themselves on the same level as Babylon the Great (Rev. 18:4).
They cannot flee to "God's earthly organization," for it has been compromised. The following places they should NOT flee to: The "mountains of Israel" are going to be invaded by Gog (Ezek. 38:8). The "beautiful land" (= the land of the Decoration) is going to be invaded by the King of the North (Dan. 11:41, 45). Jerusalem (= spiritual Jerusalem) is going to be captured (Zech. 13:7, 8; 14:1, 2). The two witnesses are going to be killed by the "beast from the abyss" (= the UN) (Rev. 11:7). So they can only flee to the new formed mountains at Zech. 14:3-5, more specifically to the valley between those mountains.
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Memorial Partakers guesses?
by AK - Jeff inthe last four years:.
with all the changes in the 'generation', 'sealing', doctines, etc.
- there have been unexpected [i imagine] jumps in this number.
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Vidqun
13101 is a good number, lucky for some, unlucky for the GB.
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Future "New Light" on "this Generation" posted here now!!!
by Witness 007 inthe governing body {karl klien} in the 1970's considered changing the generation to refer to those who saw "sputnik.
" this dumbass idea was not approved....however....2012?.
2012 new light = "this generation that knew the 1914 generation is.....the new "generation.
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Vidqun
It's called the revolving door "generation". We know when the door went up, i.e., 1914, but we don't know who the last is through the door. It's an ongoing thing, see! Get it? No I knew you wouldn't get it because you're a bunch of godless, spiritless apostates!
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Has anyone here ever heard the terms "spiritual sacrifice" or "spiritual indigestion" and if so what do these mean?
by hoser in -
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Vidqun
Spiritual sacrifice = field service
Spiritual indigestion = that's when you eat of the sacrifice (you believe what you are telling the householder, e.g. about 1914 and the generation)
Sorry, couln't help that. That's my personal interpretation.