Zound, perhaps you should read through the thread, "Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?" I know it's long and arduous, but it'll give you a good idea what's at stake.
Posts by Vidqun
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25Generation clarification
by zound injust wanted to clarify something.. [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><!
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43
The apparent contradiction of John 3:13
by EdenOne inthe wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".
notice a difference to the king james bible:.
john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.
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Vidqun
Here's a few comments by Newman & Nida from the Translators handbook of John:
John 3:13
The purpose of this verse is to emphasize the heavenly origin of the Son of Man. John is the only one of the Gospel writers to emphasize this truth; it is basic to his theology. What gives the Son of Man his authority is his heavenly origin. The Son of Man … came down from heaven to tell men on earth about the things of heaven (verse 12). That is, the coming of the Son of Man is an act of divine revelation. But more than revelation is involved, as can be seen from the following verses—it is also an act of self-giving which leads to the death of the Son of Man.
Some scholars maintain that the verb has gone up refers to the Son of Man, and so implies that he had already ascended to heaven at the time these words were written. That is, they assume that this verse contains John’s comments about the Son of Man and that it reflects the post-resurrection theology of John, rather than the words of Jesus. It is thus one way of explaining the use of the perfect tense (has gone up).
However, the statement no one has ever gone up to heaven is possibly intended merely to deny that up to that time anyone had gone up to heaven to learn about the things of heaven. If this is the meaning, no reference to the ascension of the Son of Man is intended. Moreover, just as the first half of the verse denies that anyone else knows about the things of heaven, so the second half affirms that only the Son of Man has knowledge about those things, because his origin is in heaven. It is possible that the verse is intended to carry this meaning. However, in John’s Gospel the verb tenses are not always those one would expect, and it may be that the perfect tense here does not imply that the Son of Man has already ascended to heaven. For example, in 4:38 the past tense is used (TE V have sent) of an action which Jesus has not yet done, according to the time sequence of the Gospel. For translation it is suggested that the equivalent of a perfect tense (or even of a simple past tense) be used for has gone up, without the implication of “has gone up and is now there.”
Verse 13 involves a number of subtle problems for the translator. The use of the perfect tense “has gone up” would almost inevitably indicate this was a reference to the resurrection, and therefore would tend to be interpreted as a prophecy or an interpolation by the Gospel writer. To avoid such an implication the phrase except the Son of Man can be translated “except for the Son of Man, who will go up to heaven.” However, the focus of verse 13 is not on a future resurrection, but on the fact that the Son of Man has come down from heaven and is therefore in a position to reveal truth about God and his purposes for man’s salvation. In order to indicate this contrast vividly and in order to avoid the implication of an anachronism, it is possible to translate “but the Son of Man has come down from heaven.” Such a rendering avoids one difficulty by eliminating a possible interpretation. It seems best, however, simply to translate this verse, along with certain of its exegetical obscurities and ambiguities, and to leave the interpretation to commentators. Even though this solution might allow some slight confusion for the average reader, there is at least no serious distortion of the truth through a more or less “close translation.”
There is also a textual problem in this verse. Some ancient manuscripts read “and no one has ever gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.” JB, NEB, Mf t , and Zü r all accept the words “who is in heaven” as a part of the original text. NA B , however, places them in brackets, and Zü r and NEB both have a footnote, indicating the absence of these words from some manuscripts. The other translations which include them give no note (except Segond). This phrase occurs in a few Greek manuscripts, in the Latin, and in a few Syriac versions. The textual evidence in its favour is weak and diverse. Yet the phrase is so difficult that it is hard to see why any manuscript would include it if it were not an original part of the text. The UB S Committee on the Greek text supports the shorter reading because of the strong manuscript evidence. They believe that the words “who is in heaven” were added later as a further Christological interpretation of this verse. [1]
TEV Today’s English Version
J B Jerusalem Bible
NEB New English Bible
Mft Moffatt
Zür Zürcher Bibel
NAB New American Bible
Zür Zürcher Bibel
NEB New English Bible
UBS United Bible Societies
[1] Newman, B. M., & Nida, E. A. (1993). A handbook on the Gospel of John. UBS Handbook Series (84–85). New York: United Bible Societies.
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The apparent contradiction of John 3:13
by EdenOne inthe wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".
notice a difference to the king james bible:.
john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.
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Vidqun
Eden, here is a few opinions of the Committee responsible for the Standard text, used in most modern translations. Sorry about the fonts.
3:13 {B}
On the one hand, a minority of the Committee preferred the reading ?νθρ?που ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? , arguing that (1) if the short reading, supported almost exclusively by Egyptian witnesses, were original, there is no discernible motive that would have prompted copyists to add the words ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? , resulting in a most difficult saying (the statement in 1:18, not being parallel, would scarcely have prompted the addition); and (2) the diversity of readings implies that the expression ? υ??ς το? ?νθρ?που ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? , having been found objectionable or superfluous in the context, was modified either by omitting the participial clause, or by altering it so as to avoid suggesting that the Son of Man was at that moment in heaven.
On the other hand, the majority of the Committee, impressed by the quality of the external attestation supporting the shorter reading, regarded the words ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? as an interpretative gloss, reflecting later Christological development.[1]
3:13 ?νθρ?που (of man) {B}
The words ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? (who is in heaven) at the end of the verse are most likely an interpretative comment by a copyist reflecting later Christological development. On the other hand, the longer reading may be original since the shorter reading is supported almost entirely by Egyptian witnesses. And the diversity of readings may imply that copyists found the expression ? υ??ς το? ?νθρ?που ? ?ν ?ν τ? ο?ραν? difficult and changed it either by omitting the participial clause, or by changing it so as to avoid suggesting that the Son of Man was at that moment in heaven. The shorter reading is found in most modern translations (for example, NRSV and NJB), but a few follow the longer reading (REB, Seg).[2]
{B} {B} The letter {B} {B} indicates that the text is almost certain.
[1] Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (174–175). London; New York: United Bible Societies.
NRSV New Revised Standard Version
Seg Segond
NJB New Jerusalem Bible
[2] Omanson, R. L., & Metzger, B. M. (2006). A Textual Guide to the Greek New Testament: An adaptation of Bruce M. Metzger's Textual commentary for the needs of translators (169). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.
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Jeremiah Source Material
by Bobcat ini started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .
page 52:.
here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .
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Vidqun
A lot of it has to do with the authorship of Kings and Lamentations. But to use this information to encourage the brothers to do research is ironic. If they research too much, they might get disfellowshipped. So I guess balance is needed. Only study the Society's publications. Bobcat, what say you?
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51
Jeremiah Source Material
by Bobcat ini started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .
page 52:.
here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .
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Vidqun
Bobcat, it has been brought under my attention that the Jeremiah-book, under heading "Where is Jehovah?" emphasizes that Jeremiah "filled his heart with knowledge" (cf. Jer. 9:24) and that he "learnt from experience" (cf. Jer. 26:20-23). The readers of the book are encouraged to do the same. This is a wonderful lesson, but not applicable to Jeremiah's situation at all. Almost every chapter commences with "this is the word of Jehovah," "the utterance of Jehovah," or some similar phrase. Even though Jeremiah could have "filled his heart with knowledge" and "learnt from experience," he was not at liberty to take the initiative or form his own conclusions. Initially he was told "But to all those to whom I shall send you, you should go; and everything that I shall command you, you should speak" (Jer. 1:7). He was Jehovah's prophet and had to follow Jehovah's lead. Am I right or am I missing something?
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Final Warning Given Unto Mankind, Tribulation Is Near and Soon Cometh.
by OneTrueGod inverily, thus saith the creator of all things of life and light which are good.
behold the time of tribulation draweth near and is soon at hand; i am in the sun, and the light of the sun and it shall soon darken in the day you perceive not.. .
let this be a sign unto the world that tribulation cometh quickly, the day which darkens soon cometh upon the world.
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Vidqun
Verily, I dare say, the Good News (which is Bad News) from the venerable King James Version. Are you OneTrueGod, or do you just speak for him?
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Scripturally-Speaking, Do You Think First Century Christians Were Taught To "Hate" All Apostates???
by bjc2read inhere are some searching questions about the governing body's public position on the prescribed treatment of all "apostates" against the organization, as taught at the most recent summer assemblies of jehovah's witnesses, in the year of 2013.. in your opinion, why does not the verse (shown below) not apply to how jehovah's witnesses are currently taught to feel about "apostates," and their activities toward the organization?
the verses in question, are from the words of jesus who clearly said:.
"however, i say to you: continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves sons of your father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.
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Vidqun
Paul was criticized by “superfine apostles,” certainly an equivalent of a modernday apostate of JWs. No, he did not kick them out of the congregation, for he says his purpose was to “to build up and not to tear down.”
5 For I consider that I have not in a single thing proved inferior to YOUR superfine apostles.
6 But even if I am unskilled in speech, I certainly am not in knowledge; but in every way we manifested [it] to YOU in all things. (2Co 11:5, 6 NWT)
11 I have become unreasonable. YOU compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by YOU. For I did not prove to be inferior to [YOUR] superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing. (2Co 12:11 NWT)
10 That is why I write these things while absent, that, when I am present, I may not act with severity according to the authority that the Lord gave me, to build up and not to tear down.
11 Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU.
(2Co 13:10-11 NWT)
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My JW best friend is bringing a 'heavy' around to my house to talk some sense into me.
by Julia Orwell ini agreed, if only because i want to see my friend of many years.
the 'heavy' is a large, imposing man with a booming voice and is a creature of the gb through and thru (eg only visited his dfd dad on his death bed because it was a 'good witness' to the hospital staff) and i'm feeling stressed about seeing him.
i so badly wanted to see my friend though, i agreed without thinking and now wish i hadn't have.
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Vidqun
No, all this is never in vain. A year or two from now you will laugh at the absurdity of it all. But for now your example is inspirational, helping those who are lurking. Some have gone through it all, some are busy experiencing it, and some will have to experience something similar in the near future. I keep on marvelling that something as benign as the WT, can turn into such a monster. If you allow them, the hounders will hound you to death.
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My JW best friend is bringing a 'heavy' around to my house to talk some sense into me.
by Julia Orwell ini agreed, if only because i want to see my friend of many years.
the 'heavy' is a large, imposing man with a booming voice and is a creature of the gb through and thru (eg only visited his dfd dad on his death bed because it was a 'good witness' to the hospital staff) and i'm feeling stressed about seeing him.
i so badly wanted to see my friend though, i agreed without thinking and now wish i hadn't have.
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Vidqun
Sorry, Julia, there goes your blood sugar. Believe it or not, this type of thing is bad for your health. If you take your blood sugar and blood pressure when you're under such duress, you will get a big surprise. The body goes into "fight or flight" mode. This is to help you get out of such circumstances once or twice a year. But to allow your body to regularly undergo such punishment is bad news. This just touches on phsyiological effects, not even mentioning the emotional effects to those close to you. So, this type of confrontation should be avoided at all costs. And as you said, it is not worth the effort. As the general advice goes, ditch conditional friends and start afresh. Start enjoying your life. Do not look back.
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What about your vow to Jehovah?
by a watcher indid you get baptized without being dedicated?.
why did you allow men to come between you and jehovah?.
why were you serving jehovah at all?
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Vidqun
Mrsjones, as we have learnt, it's all about planting seeds. Hopefully some will germinate.
Jgnat, I am sure there were some hemp seeds mixed in with those herbs!