BluesBrother, you're missing the point. They contend that the "beast out of the sea" (Rev. 13:1) = "beast out of the abyss" (Rev. 11:7; 17:8). First of all, that's wrong. The "beast out of the abyss" would kill the two witnesses, not the "beast out of the sea." See Rev. 11:7. Secondly, they explain the "beast from the abyss" to be the League of Nations/United Nations. The "beast from the sea" they explain as "the seven major powers that have, each in its turn, taken the lead in oppressing God's people," i.e., Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American World Power (Revelation Climax-Book, pp. 187, 188). Yes, they have always claimed that the "beast out of the sea" would kill the two witnesses because that fits their interpretation. However, they are contradicting the Bible by doing so (see Rev. 11:7). One cannot have one's cake and eat it. One cannot change the identity of the beasts to fit one's interpretation. Note the warning in Revelation (22:18, 19) when you add or take away from the scroll.
Posts by Vidqun
-
21FDS & G.B. TEACHING DESTROYED
by The Searcher incredit to vidqun for the direction given.. the watchtower november 15th qfr http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20141115/ blows the selection process/timing/individuals clean out of the water!.
simply put, ask any witness these questions:.
who is represented by the 'two witnesses' in revelation chapter 7?
-
-
-
21
FDS & G.B. TEACHING DESTROYED
by The Searcher incredit to vidqun for the direction given.. the watchtower november 15th qfr http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20141115/ blows the selection process/timing/individuals clean out of the water!.
simply put, ask any witness these questions:.
who is represented by the 'two witnesses' in revelation chapter 7?
-
-
Vidqun
This is a typical example of the Society’s dishonest scholarship. The beast that “is destined to ascend out of the abyss” (Rev. 17:8) is the same beast “that ascends out of the abyss” (Rev. 11:7). [In Revelation the beasts are identified by their origin, e.g., the beast from the sea (Rev. 13:1), the beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11), etc.]
The Society identifies the beast that “is destined to ascend out of the abyss” of Rev. 17:8 with the League of Nations and the United Nations (Revelation Climax -book, Chapter 34, p. 248).
The scarlet-colored wild beast did indeed climb out of the abyss. On June 26, 1945, with noisy fanfare in San Francisco, U.S.A., 50 nations voted to accept the Charter of the United Nations organization. This body was “to maintain international peace and security.” There were many similarities between the League and the UN. TheWorldBookEncyclopedia notes: “In some ways, the UN resembles the League of Nations, which was organized after World War I . . . Many of the nations that founded the UN had also founded the League. Like the League, the UN was established to help keep peace between nations. The main organs of the UN are much like those of the League.” The UN, then, is actually a revival of the scarlet-colored wild beast. Its membership of some 190 nations far exceeds that of the League’s 63; it has also taken on broader responsibilities than its predecessor.
However, at Rev. 11:7 the beast “ascending out of the abyss” is identified as the great political beast of Revelation 13:1 “ascending out of the sea” (Revelation Climax -book, Chapter 25, pp. 167, 168).
From 1914 to 1918 the nations were occupied with the first world war. Nationalistic feelings ran high, and in the spring of 1918, the religious enemies of the two witnesses took advantage of the situation. They maneuvered the State’s legal apparatus so that responsible ministers of the Bible Students were imprisoned on false charges of sedition. Faithful coworkers were stunned. Kingdom activity almost ceased. It was as though the preaching work were dead.
Notice now the footnote in the Revelation Climax-book (p. 167): The “abyss” (Greek, a′bys·sos; Hebrew, tehohm′) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2.) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” (Psalm 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) Thus, “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with the “wild beast ascending out of the sea.”—Revelation 11:7; 13:1.
Interestingly, the person(s) in the Writing Department, resposible for the Revelation Climax-book, did indeed notice the discrepancy. Why else the elaborate footnote? Question: Why on earth would they go to such lengths to bend the truth? Answer: To defend their 1914-1918 doctrine at all costs, even at the expense of honest scholarship and the truth.
-
27
I have nothing left in the tank, I need help
by Yondaime ini dont have the willpower to attend meetings anymore.
i'm literally on the sound system list every week.
i'm either reading on sunday or tuesday, praying on tuesday nites, adjusting mics, passing mics, or working the sound system, or doing last minute parts for the service meeting.
-
-
Vidqun
Look for the article on "Burnout" in the Awake! mag. Discuss it with your parents. I'm sure they'll get the message.
-
19
The Watchtower Confirms that The "Faithful & Discreet Slave" in 1914 Were Prophets.
by objectivetruth inresponding to the question - who are the two witnesses mentioned in revelation chapter 11?.
"so in the fulfillment of revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of gods kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached in sackcloth for three and a half years.
" (watchtower 2014 11/15 pp.28-30).
-
-
Vidqun
In this case, the WT exclaimer should read: In the making of this prophecy, no witnesses were harmed or killed.
-
19
The Watchtower Confirms that The "Faithful & Discreet Slave" in 1914 Were Prophets.
by objectivetruth inresponding to the question - who are the two witnesses mentioned in revelation chapter 11?.
"so in the fulfillment of revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of gods kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached in sackcloth for three and a half years.
" (watchtower 2014 11/15 pp.28-30).
-
-
Vidqun
Crazyguy, no matter how they spin it, their chronology doesn't match with reality. If the three-and-a-half-year period is between 1914-1918, when were the two witnesses killed? Now who killed them? The beast that ascends out of the abyss according to Revelation. They insist the beast that ascends out of the abyss is the League of Nations/UN. When did the League appear? Only after World War I in 1919. How can this beast kill the two witnesses if it does not as yet exist?
-
19
The Watchtower Confirms that The "Faithful & Discreet Slave" in 1914 Were Prophets.
by objectivetruth inresponding to the question - who are the two witnesses mentioned in revelation chapter 11?.
"so in the fulfillment of revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of gods kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached in sackcloth for three and a half years.
" (watchtower 2014 11/15 pp.28-30).
-
-
Vidqun
For those that are interested: How to refute JW Theology by means of JW Theology:
Regarding the development of the scarlet-colored wild beast, an important distinction is made. In Rev. 17:8 the angel describes it as “the wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss.” At this stage, the beast “is about to ascend out of the abyss.” This refers to the League of Nations in the post-World War I period. However, at Rev. 11:7 , during the period following the sixth trumpet blast, the angel identifies it as “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss.” Only after ascending out of the abyss, would it proceed to kill God’s two witnesses. This refers to the United Nations Organization during the post-World War II period.
This prophecy cannot apply to anointed JWs in the 1914-1918 period. The beast “about to ascend out of the abyss,” only came in existence in 1919.
-
20
I need help
by tiredroadie inim new here, and dont know much about jw, other than what im reading.
i have my best friend who is having bible study in her home with 2 witnesses, and she is soaking it in.
she is very defensive and is getting more and more closed off.
-
-
Vidqun
Perhaps ask your friend, does she know what will happen to her if she is baptized and then changes her mind. She will be disfellowshipped. Ask her to explain the term to you. If she has children, and one of them does not want to be a Witness anymore, does she realize that she will not be able to talk or associate with him/her anymore.
-
28
Best scriptures for countering TOMO III's comment about "inactive ones"??
by DATA-DOG inwhat do you say, bible gurus???
a relative asked me what i thought of the zone visit.
i am in the process of gathering my thoughts.
-
-
Vidqun
Oubliette, yeah, I guess you're right. I just think there will be quite a few waking up to TTATT, with the way things are going, so one should go easy on them. By reasoning logically from the Scriptures, one could point them in the right direction. Their Listen, Obey, and be blessed-mantra might work in a song, but doesn't work in real life. Also it has become clear that their leadership has become totally disconnected from reality. We can expect some more "earth-shaking" truths announced from the platform, and as the saying goes, "the truth shall set you free."
-
28
Best scriptures for countering TOMO III's comment about "inactive ones"??
by DATA-DOG inwhat do you say, bible gurus???
a relative asked me what i thought of the zone visit.
i am in the process of gathering my thoughts.
-
-
Vidqun
Oubliette, I disagree. If you want to reason with a Witness without using Scripture, you will be wasting your time. Also, note the context of Matt. 12:30. There Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, and we know how he felt about them. They recognized the miracle, but ascribed it to Beelzebub, i.e., Satan. He emphasized an excellent principle: Good tree, good fruit. Bad tree, bad fruit.
-
28
Best scriptures for countering TOMO III's comment about "inactive ones"??
by DATA-DOG inwhat do you say, bible gurus???
a relative asked me what i thought of the zone visit.
i am in the process of gathering my thoughts.
-
-
Vidqun
Phizzy, this the one you're thinking of. The last two verses are quite ironic, especially verse 42. I wonder how many he stumbled with his opinions.
38 John said to him, Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.
39 But Jesus said, Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me;
40 for he that is not against us is for us.
41 For whoever gives YOU a cup of water to drink on the ground that YOU belong to Christ, I truly tell YOU, he will by no means lose his reward.
42 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea.
(Mar 9:38-42 NWT)