Posts by Pathofthorns

13

Need help with a few questions please

by rejoice in

jw
friends

i lived next door to a jw for 3 years and we became very good friends although it was often a strained relationship.

i would read the books and even listen to the tapes from kh she gave me but, when i had questions or showed an opinion she would become so angry.

i was reared a southern baptist and still am today and claim jesus christ as my savior through his grace.

Pathofthorns

It was very nice of you to be looking out for your neighbour and it is impressive that she is still in your thoughts.

The funny thing with JW's is that while they may personally be in need of help or assistance, they really feel that it is you that is lost and misguided. This makes them very difficult to reach.

Often women in the situation you described your former neighbour having been in tend to put more weight to the JW belief system because that is all they really have. They make it into something more than it is and feel that it is the only thing keeping them afloat when often it is what holds them back.

It will be difficult for this woman to ever view you as a really close friend as long as she remains a Witness. You will always be considered just a really good person that she thinks would make a good Witness. She is thinking that it is such a shame that you are not and subconsciously is a bit confused because non-Witnesses are not supposed to be good persons - certainly not better Christians than JW's.

Imo, if you really want to help her this will be a long term "project". Keep doing what you have always done and be a good friend that is looking out for her. Keep critical comments about JW's to a minimum but perhaps ask well-timed carefully put questions that might make her think. Keep in mind you are ultimately tearing down everything she loves and holds dear in her life. If you take that away from her she believes there will be nothing left. You must replace what you take away from her and you need to show her that life can be just fine without her illusions regarding this religion.

Path

5

Who's gonna get the new NIRVANA cd?

by bay64me in

released on nov 28th.....i can't wait!

Pathofthorns

I just saw the video last night on MTV2 for "you know you're right". Actually they had a small run of Nirvana stuff for a couple of hours and every now and again it is strange to be transferred back in time to that period of your life.

It was kind of eerie to hear the raw sound of something new from Nirvana on the radio a decade after Kurt died. I don't think there is anything out there that grabs your attention and captures what you are feeling quite like Nirvana did for generation x.

The music industry seems rather desperate for something new and fresh that will do the same thing nirvana did. Tossing out a "new" Nirvana song among old songs we already have is an indication of their desperate state. Tom Petty's "Last DJ" is a pretty good commentary on what things have become.

Path

19

60% of Jehovah's Witnesses leaving?

by cherjcd in

jw
friends

i have just posted some of the audio from the 2002 witnesses now for jesus convention at http://www.jwinfoline.com/page/audio_tapes_of_month.htm more to come shortly.. on sunday evening a jehovah's witness still active in the watchtower and said that 55 - 60% of jehovah's witnesses have stopped attending in some kingdom halls.

has anyone else noticed a significant drop in kingdom hall attendance?

is there something big going on inside the wt organization that outsiders may not be aware of?.

Pathofthorns

I noticed you were from Canada. I would say from what I have seen, the number of hardcore JW's seems to be a rapidly shrinking group here. The majority are increasingly liberal and while still mentally and emotionally attached to the social club they have reduced this to a religion of convenience.

I still see KH parkinglots full on Sundays, but with the fragile loyalties of many of the Canadian JW's, it would not surprise me if attendance in the near future trails off at a rapid rate. The social club is a powerful motivation for keeping people in, but if people begin to leave in any significant numbers, friends of friends and their families may as well due to a snowball effect. Imo, all people here need is a reason to leave.

Path

30

A House Divided

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

bill bowen has divided his own house.

most here supported his efforts and still do, what he has done is cause a fire among his own supporters here, his large army of friends here.

it's not rf supporters against bb supporters it's really silentlambs org.

Pathofthorns

I get the impression that there have been several rational minds that have assisted Bill Bowen and the Silentlambs organization to overcome great obstacles to get to the point it has. Certainly Bill and his wife and all of the victims that came forward are appreciated.

But there must be a great sense of embarrassment and concern among many of these persons not in the spotlight as they see support for Silentlambs evaporating. If it can't be agreed that what was said was wrong, certainly it was at the very least a very unwise political move.

Rightly or wrongly the sense of justice in what seems to be the majority of posters here is demanding a "proper apology". People sometimes need to hear what they need to hear and feel that it is genuinely sincere. I sense that if this happens most persons will be onside once again, provided some efforts to reduce the posibility of such occurances happening in the future are implemented. Simply on the merits of what the Silentlambs group has accomplished, people will overlook alot of things - provided the importance we place on a sincere apology is respected.

Exactly why an apology has not been forthcoming is beyond me. What possible reason that is so important that it disregards the cries for an apology? It gives the impression of complete disrespect to so many here. Yes, the dead horse continues to be beaten and we are all sick and tired of it. But it can be made to stop and it could have been made to stop a long time ago. Why hasn't it?

Is there anyone among the rational minds operating behind the scenes at Silentlambs that is willing to shed some light on this? I don't think hoping people will simply "move on and forget" is terribly effective. I mean if the WT had admitted it's mistakes and apologized regarding mishandling cases of child abuse, would that not have changed the direction of things and would we not at least have more respect for them than their silence and denials and justifications?

Path

108

The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!

by bjc2012 in

jw
friends

and for those reasons, coj wanted in the beginning, to stay with the organization, just like bill bowens.

that is all carl wanted.

yes, as members of the governing body, they knew full well, exactly what carl's writings meant.

Pathofthorns

Interesting comments. Thanks

Path

8

Were You Ever A "Cause Finder"?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i knew an elder that used to have a favorite term for ones that he felt were always stirring up things.

he called them "cause finders".

anytime a new issue could be made about something, they were there.

Pathofthorns

I guess "cause finder" is alot better than being labelled a troublemaker or a complainer

I think the system is flawed because it ties the hands of the elders or leaves them inadequately prepared to properly address situations leaving them wide open to complaints. Since the system itself cannot be criticized or questioned or thought to be "wrong" and the elders lack real solutions they tend to get upset at those in the congregation that are a little more "idealistic" than most.

Most know things are not the way they are "supposed to be" but are forced to overlook this and just accept it. Instead of rewarding innitiative to address and correct problems and difficult situations, this organization punnishes these people for not toeing the line and "waiting on JEhovah" to correct things.

I was one that was disappointed at how things were handled but also realized that elders were very limited in what they really could do because the system itself prevented them. About the only thing I could do in the end to keep my sanity was to excuse myself from such a confining environment. Instead of being an atmosphere where people in difficulty were assisted and cared for, it was an environment were people seemed to be chastised and punished for being in a situation where they needed help.

Path

(a much better thread than "rate yourself" )

Edited by - Pathofthorns on 26 October 2002 10:2:30

131

Post by Ray Franz

by Amazing in

jw
friends

ray franz requested that i post the following comments written by him:

as has been stated already, the presentation made from the silent lambs source in connection with the child abuse issue completely misrepresents my position.

when i spoke by phone recently with the author of that presentation, and pointed out that i had never expressed the views presented, his comment was that from his previous conversation with me (held some months earlier) he "got the impression that i was not on the same wave length" with him.

Pathofthorns

I am sad Ray and Jim have chosen to pursue this. All those scriptures and all that history just because you are pissed off and wish to justify your attack on me.

While I was trying to help silent lambs it appears Ray and Jim had a lot of free time. I am going to think about this a few days and while I do I would like to leave Ray and Jim with one scripture. Romans 14:19, "So, then, let us pursue peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another."
Perhaps all on the board might want to consider that thought.

All I can say Bill is that your comments are absolutely outrageous. You continue to attack Ray and now Amazing and then lecture everyone to just move on and ignore a problem while tossing in a scripture to support it? You also imply that how these men use their time is some how less important than how you've chosen to.

You have absolutely no remorse for anything you've said or done and can't even appreciate the value of doing so if only for political reasons. Your own arrogant comments and failure to acknowledge any wrongdoing on your part are what has perpetuated this whole thing and why the matter has not been resolved to anyone's satisfaction except a few blind followers of yours.

I have to respect J2L's comments about moving on, but how exactly does one do this in light of what continues to transpire? And that Ray has commented on this matter so long after it has occurred shows he is still concerned over it and that it has not been resolved. So is "moving on" really that wise and is it not tantamount to the WT's "waiting on Jehovah" to sidestep dealing with obvious problems?

I am quite certain that in person Bill is a great person and if I actually knew the man himself I would find myself excusing more than I do. I think though, if I were a close friend I would be all the more sadder and that much more perplexed and especially in this instance I still could not ignore that a serious line has been crossed.

I do think J2L's advice is very good for Bill to post under his name when it comes to his own personal expressions and leave the Silentlambs name for "approved" public statements and press releases. It is not right to mix private and public matters in instances like this and posting extreme personal thoughts under an organization's name certainly gives a wrong impression.

Path

29

Can we talk about something deep?

by kenpodragon in

jw
friends

the other night my mom called me to just talk.

my mother is a jehovah's witness still, so it is not unusual for that to be obvious in the conversation.

now i love my mom very much, and enjoy any time i can spend talking to her.

Pathofthorns

When I am speaking with JW's the conversation is generally organization stuff and gossip about other JW's, when I am talking with exJW's it is generally about how much they hate the WT and how it has ruined their life and when I'm talking with workmates it is business and when I am talking with neighbours it is house and family stuff...

I think most conversation is just what it is and we talk about what we do depending on who we are talking with. I just find that when I talk with active JW's it all seems so strange now and I no longer relate. But the bitter conversation among many xJW's (and I include myself) is not what I prefer either.

Interesting thread when you give it some thought... anyway...

Path

26

Stop Taking Bill's or Ray's Side!

by Derrick in

jw
friends

gsark wrote:.

if they hold ray franz responsible in some way then i am on their side one hundred percent.. .

the very implication behind this comment is chilling to me.

Pathofthorns

There are few things that touch people more than a heartfelt apology. We all make mistakes but there is just something that makes the world of difference to one that has been offended when an apology is offered.

I realize Ray probably has not demanded or even hopes for an apology but sometimes these things are just the right thing to do.

This whole thing is not about "taking sides" but about our individual responsibility to be accountable for our actions and all the more so when any of us accept a perceived position of leadership. It is about us striving to be just and fair and not hypocritical. Basically it is about us not being like the WT.

Path

Edited by - Pathofthorns on 24 October 2002 19:20:7

50

Letter read at Supplimentary Elder's School

by messenger in

jw
friends

christian congregation

of jehovah's witnesses

2528 route 22

Pathofthorns

interesting. Thanks.

I agree with the comments that the innitial post should not portray this as a word for word letter but should be edited to reflect more accurately that it is based on notes taken at the meeting.

I doubt few would feel the content is inconsistent with what the WT would have said and until an actual copy or a word for word transcript is produced it is likely sufficient for our general knowledge.

thanks again for sharing this.

Path