Kingpawn

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Posts by Kingpawn

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  10

  What would you do?

  by Beans in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was a young jw i always wanted to have christmas as i always felt i was missing out!

  so i convinced my presiding overseer father that we should have a day where we exchange gifts like in the spring or something.

  so he thought about it and said that it would be ok and we did this and it was called present day.

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  Kingpawn

  Beans, let me get this straight. You talked your dad into this as a kid, it caught on, and now you don't want to do it?
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  25

  Love & Dating

  by stefanieroe in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i need someones advice on dating a jw when im not a believer.

  i've just recently met him, lets call him chad, and he was the most amazing person ive ever met.

  he was easy to talk to and funny, sweet, gorgeous.

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  Kingpawn

  Stef,

  Earlier you had said you were curious about what they believe.

  At the bottom of the page you'll find a number of links (quotes.com I think you've been to already) to sites that are helpful but, as you said, are too much to read.

  I agree. There's a lot of info to be digested and it's not just what they believe, but also why.

  I've listed a few of their beliefs that I think you'd find most relevant for your age and situation in life (single, about out of school, close to leaving home perhaps). You can look for info of these topics on the links already noted as well as on here by using the "search" option in the upper left hand corner of each page:

  1. The Witness' beliefs about the worth of higher education.
  2. Husband and wive's roles in a marriage--headship, iow.
  3. Their statements on marital sex--specifically oral and anal sex--even foreplay techniques.

  Other issues you could research as a change, just as you eat more than one food at a meal, would be:

  1. Why they won't take blood transfusions--study this if you would like children someday.
  2. " " " observe holidays or birthdays.

  Thes are more useful from the point of view of being married and starting a family, and considering how your children (who want acceptance from their peers as much as anyone else does) would be seen by friends and classmates for observing these beliefs and living their lives by them.

  Having done that, should you approach Chad with questions about the material, you'll hear statements like these:

  • "Those are "apostates" saying those things. They were kicked out or left Jehovah's organization and have an axe to grind." (Acta 20:29, 30)

  "Apostate," to a Witness, is like saying "tax-and-spend liberal" about a conservative's political opponent; a nice, smear-`em-all-with-the-same-brush slur. A "flash word," in my vocabulary. Designed to get an emotional reaction, a visceral, unthinking hatred of the person maligned that way.

  I, among others here, was disfellowshipped (excommunicated) and no longer believe in their teachings, or that they are the "true religion." That doesn't mean I have an axe to grind about it. (BTW, every Witness who came from another religion to become a Witness is an "apostate" from that previous religion, right? There's the pot calling the kettle black!) Many people here would, and rightly so imo, criticize about the degree of noncommunication that goes on between people who were once "brothers and sisters" and now are split because one was kicked out or left. You'll read horror stories on here about how friends, family, and co-workers, now "df'ed," have been treated at times by active Witnesses. (Search using "shunning" or "disfellowshipping.")

  So far, have you felt anger, fanatical hatred, or anything like that from the people who've responded to you? If not, the "axe to grind" argument loses some (not all) of its truth. There are angry, and very hurt/injured, people here and on other sites.

  • "Their attacks are Satan's tries to destroy us." (Rev. 12:10)

  This is a frequent defense against unpleasant information. The natural curiosity (and sense that "there's two sides to every story") can be squashed without guilt. It's an ad hominem: ignore the message, attack the messenger. He may even see you as having been "tricked" by us sly imps into doing the Dark Lord's bidding and attacking his faith.

  The problems the Witnesses have are being brought on by themselves in many cases. Facts exist and can be verified. With the Internet, information has become too widely available to be controlled. And high-control groups like them thrive on insulating their followers from it. Their last resort is to brand it all as lies and scare their members away from even thinking about reading from sites like this. No loyal Witness should even think of questioning the F&DS (Faithful and Discreet Slave), iow the Society. (The Society tells them that the Internet is a bad place--except for their site. Kind of like its criticizing Christendom for adopting pagan holidays and the Church calling the holidays "Christian" as a result.)

  • "The Society hasn't changed its doctrines; we just got new light." (Ps. 4:6)

  Check the sub-forums under "Health and Family Matters" about ideas on medicine they had in the past since proved false. That way you don't have to take my word for it. Things like: vaccinations are useless; organ transplants equalled cannibalism; we can't take blood transfusions (but certain blood components are OK now). There are more but I can't remember them all.

  To them, doctrinal changes mean it's being more and more clearly revealed. To me, it's like trying to walk during an earthquake; what firm (belief or ground) is there to stand on?

  • "We're living in the last days of this system of things."

  In 1914, they say, Christ returned and took up kingship; Satan was thrown out of Heaven at the same time and confined here, and that's why the world has been in such turmoil since (Rev. 12:7-12). And the generation that saw (was old enough to remember) all this wouldn't all die off before the New System arrived (Matt. 24:34). Decades passed, no New System, and the doctrine was changed (a generation needn't be just 80 years, for example) to explain the delay (Ps. 90:10). Finally, trying to hold its occcuring in "one generation" were abandoned entirely. They also said that in 1925 Abraham, Issac, and other "worthies of old" would rise and live in San Diego, California, in the US. (Why not Israel? Is modern Hebrew so different they'd be unable to communicate?) The Society built a house for them and later a JW leader moved in to it--but no "ancients" of Biblical days. In 1975, expectations were very high (www.freeminds.org has excellent info on this) that "this could be it"--6,000 years since Adam's creation, iow, and therefor a new era of human history was about to unfold. Many Witnesses quit jobs, sold homes, put off needed medical care, etc., fully convinced there was no further need of these things--and were greatly disillusioned when nothing happened. And whose fault was that? Why, the rank and file's, of course! How dare anyone imply the Society raised false hopes. You people read too much into it, was the attitude that came down from the Governing Body.

  In the Society's literature is a statement that if a prophet's words fail to pass, you're entitled to consider them a false prophet--but the Society doesn't feel this applies to them. And never mind the Bible's quoting Christ as saying even He didn't know when things would occur (Matt. 24:36).

  I hope this helps, and that it isn't overkill. There are other topics--the UN, pedophilia, the Society owning stock ("wordly" but if they do it, apparently OK) in a company that itself is a major stockholder in another company doing work with possible military applications (from a religion stressing its pacificism) I haven't touched on.

  The facts are there; the Governing Body does its best to hide them and the JW's simply refuse to look at them when shown.
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  34

  Satan Claus

  by SwedishChef in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  santa claus takes the place of god in the holidays.

  similarities between santa and god:.

  quality of santa claus #1:.

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  Kingpawn

  Jesus Christ is the Reason for the Season.

  I went for a walk earlier this morning and passed a business with several Nativity scenes set up. It was interesting to see one of the three Magi wearing...sandals! Joseph was too. Now how many people do you see wearing sandals in winter? Even without snow, it's still too cold for them.

  Isn't it interesting that pagan religions have a story of a divine being born on Yule (the winter solstice, 12/21) and Christianity has a story of a divine being born on 12/25?

  Also, there is an item now on Yahoo (science news) where scientists speculate on what the Star of Bethlehem could have been. In the story, it's noted that one problem with trying to solve the mystery is not knowing for sure when Christ was born (month and year mainly-the chronicler went from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. without allowing for the year 0 in between, for example. Another glitch leads to at least a four year error, but I can't get the story up right now to explain it). But, since shepherds are noted in Scripture apparently tending newborn sheep, and such sheep are born earlier in the year, speculation has it Christ may have been born in October. It's an interesting article.

  The reason for the season isn't Christ. It's making up for slow sales the rest of the year. If not, why are prices always higher now? Why don't they pass on greater savings to the public?
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  10

  Americans more religious than others

  by Gopher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here's an article based on a poll taken.

  what is it about americans that makes them so reliant on religious organizations?

  notice the wording of the poll -- asking if religion (and not spirituality or god) was important to them.

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  Kingpawn

  There was a book written around 1990 that said of Americans polled that 90% were religious but only 60% let religion exercise an influence in their lives. The title I can't remember; the subtitle was "The Day America Told The Truth." What I mainly remember was the rankings of the ten worst jobs (a few of them anyway). They were, from absolute worst to the slightly more approved:

  1. Drug dealer
  2. Mafia crime boss
  3. Televangelist
  4. Prostitute

  IOW being a hooker was considered more respectable than being a televangelist.

  What is it about Americans that makes them so reliant on religious organizations?

  I could guess that, since the majority of Americans are of the "baby boom" generation (1946-64) and as people get older they get more conservative, and at a time when the pace of change is seemingly increasing, it's a preference for "the way things used to be" being expressed here.

  So it's also a case of people feeling uneasy at this pace who want to be told what to do; they don't feel comfortable trying to make their own way in life; the rules of the game have changed. Maybe even a hanging-on from the upsurge in church attendance post-9/11?
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  16

  A Physicist's view of the WT future

  by jst2laws in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  just a little experience i had this week.

  we recently found a local learning center comprised of amateur scientist and professionals who meet regular to share new ideas and to conduct classes and group discussions.

  yesterday i spoke with the president of the learning center who is 75 years old retired physicist.

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  Kingpawn

  Actually what the physicist said about the `Net dooming high-control groups is interesting for speculating--what would happen if...?

  Word is bound to spread about the scandals. I have a feeling more and more JW's will privately tell each other about sites like this, Freeminds, Silentlambs (is it Lambsroar now?) and others. (BTW, someone floated an idea about putting websites like this, freeminds, Silentlambs and others on every piece of mail you send out. Anyone else still doing this?) Like Karen says, that natural curiosity and search for freedom can't be stifled indefinitely. The Communists thought they could and failed, even with the power of the State behind them.

  So the word gets out, more and more people question, some get the boot...maybe suddenly they wake up to the idea that a simple question got their salvation cancelled and how logical is that? Who can tell in each individual's mind what the final straw will be? A thread on here some time back asked the same question and got a variety of answers.

  Now, their control's threatened or challenged, and money's drying up. Projects'll have to be put off and face-saving reasons given. New rants about the `Net, the Last Days are here because more and more are falling away independently deciding things and becoming worldly being df'ed and Satan's making an all-out effort to destroy Jah's organization (but if he can, isn't he more powerful than God? And won't God save His organization like He did the Israelites in the wilderness???).

  Between pickets and bad press from the outside and massive defections from within, the WBTS is caught in a pincers-style movement further decimating the ranks. The more militant and hard-core remain faithful, convinced if they endure a little while longer it'll all be like the GB said in Revelation.

  But what if the attack on B the G never happens? Christendom continues on its merry way? No, it's not a failed prophecy...it's new light! Just bear with us. J'll save you!

  I doubt we'll see another Heaven's Gate-style mass suicide, but...the more the scales fall from the eyes, the more differences between what was expected and what's happening...the more irrational they will act.

  Where might it end?
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  118

  Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?

  by Jerry Bergman in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.

  some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.

  most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.

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  Kingpawn

  Jerry,

  To answer your question, yes. Unfortunately.

  Something Seven006 said really struck me. Common sense should tell people that it's wrong to kill, lie, cheat, steal, and so on. So why does it have to specified in Scripture (whether in the Bible, the Koran, or other holy writings)?

  Maybe the prohibitions were put in with the most insecure and fearful members of the human race in mind. The ones so afraid of a wrong decision, so afraid of their humanity and sexuality, they need to be able to cite chapter and verse forbidding whatever in order to feel "safe."

  Something no one's touched on regarding the study of other religions, especially pagan ones, and the "play[ing] with rocks" groups, is the appeal they have.

  I spent very little time as a Witness, but it's been two decades since I was kicked out before I seriously began studying one pagan religion. I've got almost a dozen reasons why it appeals to me, one of which is variations on a theme, but they might show why so many feel traditional religion has failed for them, and so they've moved to belief systems like these.

  The main ones, I'd say, are: that there's no holy book for people to argue over what chapter Y and verse Z in the book of X means. And there's no "we are the only way" mindset, which leads to smugness, superior feelings, jihads, Crusades, and secular wars where the "Bible-based" churches have blessed the soldiers of both sides, among other "bad fruits."

  The rules are few--a restated Golden Rule actually. Do nothing to harm others or yourself, especially by seeking to control or manipulate others, or doing things for/to them without their knowledge and consent. Also, since we were given a brain with the ability to reason, the person is expected to be able to figure out how to live on a daily basis and run their own life, rather than have an instruction manual/spiritual "boss" for almost every situation. If that rule's broken, consequences are expected, and in greater measure than was the original evil. Hardly a picture of casting off all restraint.

  Another one (for me anyway) is that I needn't sit passively in a building and be "spoon-fed" religion and knowledge by someone who sees him/herself as a needed intercessor, a dispenser of divinity. I can connect directly to a Higher Power anytime, not just during prayer. The world can be my church, not some particular building.

  Then there's the idea of no Satan that led mankind into sin. It's felt we choose to do good or evil. The same race that produced Hitler and Stalin and Mao Tse-tung also gave us Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and da Vinci. None of that "*wink-snigger* "The Devil made me do it" crap. We choose to do good or evil. This also scraps the argument about the need for personal salvation (let alone who to follow or how it's acheived, on which all religions stressing a need for salvation differ).

  It took me a long time to get that far in accepting the beliefs, because I was a "blank slate" before the JW's arrived at my door and their hold on my thinking about other religions still hinders me. Some pagan beliefs are in the "the jury's still out on this" list. But that simplicity, the empowerment, the not being treated as barely smarter than a trained canine, attracts me to it.

  No religion, philosophy, movement, etc., has a monopoly on virtue or vice.
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  26

  Living together before marriage=promiscuous?

  by Witch Child in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  this is part of someone else's post;.

  "we had a controversy recently related to this.

  our last pastor (a great guy, a harvard grad and a ph.d.) said he would not marry persons with one address (they could live together and fornicate all they wished, they just could not flaunt it) and some condemned him for intolerance!

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  Kingpawn

  On the one hand, I think I'd support two people living together because, let's face it, on a date you're on your best behavior, dressed to the nines, and all that. You don't see him when he needs a shave, or her when her bra's not in place...less than ideal circumstances is what I mean. Or how they handle day-to-day issues.

  With cohabitation, you do see that. I'd probably say a couple ought to cohabit for a year, maybe 18 months on the outside. There was a Reader's Digest article that said the first trouble time in a marriage is at one year, when the "newness" wears off. So if a relationship lasts more than a year, maybe it has a better chance of lasting a lifetime.

  You'd have to be careful the two really loved each other because it is easy for guys to "shop around." There is the chance of a pregnancy and if he wasn't as commited as she thought there's another source of stress.

  Speaking as a guy with two daughters...I'd be a nervous wreck worrying whether they were really in a commited relationship or not. They haven't got the knowledge of guys I do, and just like I was at that age, they'll think Dad is so square and out of touch.
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  21

  Fed Up!

  by gilwarrior in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  right now i am so mad!

  i am in total road rage mode.

  the reason is my job.

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  Kingpawn

  Gil,

  I did attend a technical school for accounting and I got a certificate after nine months, but I haven't been able to find a job with it.

  I have an Associate's degree in it and no experience. I'm working in a meat-processing plant doing production. I hate to add to your woes but unless the market is a lot better there, you're out of luck on the degree with no experience. But the Bureau of Labor job projections for Accounting Clerks I've seen show an expected decrease yearly in the number of people needed for that line of work through 2005.

  BUT Celia makes a good point when she says to learn Quickbooks if that's growing in popularity. See where the need will be in a variety of areas and be there ahead of the pack. Ruby Tuesday's idea of the business cards sounds good too. Any of those people you give a map/card to could be a future employer who has need of talents you have--or would value the initiative shown by the card placements.

  If you get a selling job--always ask yourself why the customer should want the product you're hawking rather than the competitor's. Be knowledgeable about it. Know who it's best for. Be enthusiastic. Same goes for when you're interviewing. Why should they hire you? What can you offer their company to help it grow? And be enthusiastic selling yourself!

  You have talents and abilities--show them off!
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  13

  How have you rooted out the WT (harmful) doctrines

  by Marcos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i left the wt i basically never looked back.

  i decided that they would never again impact my life as they had in the past.. here is the problem in my case.

  after all these years, i have finally been faced with some situations that i had to react to and have seen that a lot of the old teachings were still influencing my decisions in life (ie.

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  Kingpawn

  Even though I was an active JW for less than a year, I think, I still believed in many of their doctrines when I first came here (still do on a few).

  Fortunately I was never faced with any decisions on things relating to them that were literally life-and-death issues in the years since.

  Probably your best bet would be to use the "search" link above, type in keywords on topics you want to research, and go from there. On here you'll find both deeply researched articles and the stories of others who've had to make choices at some time or another. The "Quotes" link at the bottom of each page is another great resource.

  For me, seeing the differences between what they should be and what they are in practice made the change for me easier. Stories of how people who've left were treated, whether df'ed, da'ed, or the "fade-aways," and the arguments of posters here convinced me they were wrong. On some doctrines there are glaring errors.

  For example, on the blood issue, they quote Gen. 9:4 to support the idea of not taking blood. But as someone else pointed out, human blood isn't mentioned here. And an incident can be found in which some of Saul's men ate unblooded flesh, and there's no record they were punished for it by Jehovah Himself (1 Sam. 14:31-35).

  That little matter of being a UN whore for ten years, and the pedophilia issue and their handling of it, did away with any traces of respect I had for them and their doctrines.

  I don't know if this really answers your question or not. I'm sure others will answer and they'll likely be more helpful.
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  29

  Opinions/Advice needed

  by joannadandy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok here is my deal.... for those of you who don't know already i have never been df'd or da'd.

  i just quit going, and was never baptized.

  (that will become relevant later).

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  Kingpawn

  Joanna,

  My gut reaction is to say: don't go.

  Reborn said it best earlier. Why be seen as groveling?

  Then too, I see it a an intentional slight that you didn't get a separate invitation. To me that's tacky. Are they so strapped for cash they couldn't afford one more invitation's postage?

  La Capra said:

  do what you would want your friend to do if the situation were reversed.

  The problem I have with her advice, well-intentioned though it was, is that you are not on an equal footing with them, and so trying to look at it as though reversed doesn't apply. THEY have "the truth" ito, and you're not active. I doubt they could (or would) even look at the situation and your going as though it was reversed, and see how forgiving you'd be by going.

  Saddest is that an innocent third party (the baby) is at the center of this now. Like s/he's being used as a lure to get you there.