Posts by Phizzy

20

Why did Paul call Jesus, “the firstborn from the dead”?

by Doug Mason in

"jesus christ was resurrected on nisan 16, 33 c.e., the day when the jewish high priest offered up the firstfruits of the barley harvest.

this fits in accurately with jesus' being the "firstfruits" in the resurrection of the human dead.

(1 cor.

Phizzy

" Suffice to say, reconstructing 1800-1900 year old religious sects to figure out what they each believed while history did its best to compound them into a single religion is really hard."

It is ! and of course the old JW view, and that of many Bible believers, that there was a uniform and united belief system accepted by the Apostles and others in the 1st Century is nonsense. There were various groups who followed Jesus, and disagreed on Doctrine.

The Apostle Paul was of course very different in his beliefs to those of the the Christians in Jerusalem, and he is at pains to point this out, in his genuine writings. This is obscured by the fictional Acts of the Apostles and by later writings pretending to be by Paul.

What he meant by " Firstborn from the dead" is probably as stated in previous Posts on this Thread, but would the other Christian groups have agreed with him ?

17

Questions I have about the "Ministry School".

by Pallbearer in

i remember that jehovah's witnesses used to have a 2-hour, 2-part mid-week meeting which included a 1-hour "ministry school" followed by a 1-hour "service meeting".

please correct me if i am wrong in any respect but to the best of my memory the ministry school was composed of 4 parts, as follows:.

part 1: an "instruction talk".

Phizzy

The effectiveness or not of the old Theocratic M. S, depended upon the skills of the Elder in charge , in the old days we had a guy who was very skilled, and taught many to be good Speakers. Then we got a guy who himself had no mastery of the English language, was hardly literate, and was a total joke, why the Elders foisted him upon us I know not !

Nobody improved of course under his "tutelage". I should imagine that now anyone who turns out to be a reasonable Speaker does so from natural talent, not learning skills from any JW Meeting !

5

Questions to examine our faith

by road to nowhere in

this weeks clam part.

takes you to a wt on slowing down.

first question is are you discouraged by the promises not coming.

Phizzy

Looking back over my nearly six decades in the Org, and remembering frequent Watchtower Articles like this, and several talks, I realise that I used to find them slightly depressing.

This was because of Cognitive Dissonance, and me not wanting to actually face up to the thoughts that were coming in to my mind, such as " I wonder if this is all nonsense ?", sadly, like most JW's do, I considered these thoughts to be a lack of faith, and a bad thing, and shoved them deep in to the recesses of my mind.

I say sadly, for had I not done so, I would have woken up MUCH earlier ! I wonder if this recent stuff will start maybe one or two JW's on the road to Freedom ? Most of them will not be affected, any who are still in these days are deeply entrenched for a variety of reasons , and will do what I did, shove thoughts like "Really ?" to the back of their minds, again sadly, to be FREE is so wonderful !!

12

What day off the Week?

by BereanThinker7 in

does anybody know if the borg has ever done any articles on what day of the week they think jesus died?

i know most denominations think it was friday and i have also heard somewhat sensible arguments that it could be wednesday.

not that it matters weather one in a believer or not even.

Phizzy

This is an interesting quote from Professor Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus, and sheds light on why we can not be dogmatic upon anything to do with him, day of death, hour of death, or whatever :

“I personally love the Bible. I read it all the time, in the original Greek and Hebrew; I study it; I teach it. I have done so for over thirty-five years. And I don’t plan to stop any time soon. But I don’t think the Bible is perfect. Far from it. The Bible is filled with a multitude of voices, and these voices are often at odds with one another, contradicting one another in minute details and in major issues involving such basic views as what God is like, who the people of God are, who Jesus is, how one can be in a right relationship with God, why there is suffering in the world, how we are to behave, and on and on. And I heartily disagree with the views of most of the biblical authors on one point or another. Still, in my judgment all of these voices are valuable and they should all be listened to. Some of the writers of the Bible were religious geniuses, and just as we listen to other geniuses of our tradition—Mozart and Beethoven, Shakespeare and Dickens—so we ought to listen to the authors of the Bible. But they were not inspired by God, in my opinion, any more than any other genius is. And they contradict each other all over the map.”

― Bart D. Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth

20

Why did Paul call Jesus, “the firstborn from the dead”?

by Doug Mason in

"jesus christ was resurrected on nisan 16, 33 c.e., the day when the jewish high priest offered up the firstfruits of the barley harvest.

this fits in accurately with jesus' being the "firstfruits" in the resurrection of the human dead.

(1 cor.

Phizzy

Jan, if we cannot know when Sin first occurred and how, how can any religion claim we are " all sinners" and " born in sin" ?? I think both of those statements are WRONG. But then, I am not a Bible believer, I would very much like someone with real Bible knowledge, not a JW or other Bible literalist, explain from Scripture, as you say, the " mechanics" of it. Obviously Paul's writings don't count, he had his own ideas on Sin and whence it came, but they make no sense if the Adam and Eve story is just a metaphor, as it surely is.

If there is no " Sin" then Jesus died for what ?

And if like the Apostle Paul, you believe Jesus was resurrected to life in Heaven, of what significance is this ?

12

What day off the Week?

by BereanThinker7 in

does anybody know if the borg has ever done any articles on what day of the week they think jesus died?

i know most denominations think it was friday and i have also heard somewhat sensible arguments that it could be wednesday.

not that it matters weather one in a believer or not even.

Phizzy

Personally, I do not doubt the existence of Jesus as a Historical Figure. But the Gospels and later writings have to be taken for what they are, not what we want them to be.

Yes, they may, possibly, record some of his words, with probably doubtful accuracy, but certainly a lot of the deeds he is supposed to have done, and events around his death, all smack of Fiction.

There is a lot more about the Gospels that mean they were never written as Histories or verbatim reports of conversations etc, but were written to bolster the nascent Jesus Movement. Each Gospel writer has an agenda, that colours his writing.

4

The importance of being Satan or the Devil

by Etude in

while the word "satan" appears in many translations of the old and new testament, it is much more common in the n.t., with only a few mentions in the o.t.

the word "devil" seems almost exclusively used in the n.t., at least in the few versions i checked.

this may have something to do with the word origin, satan v devil.

Phizzy

There was a thread on here about the Zoroastrian connection to the construction of the Bible as we know it. I think you are very correct with your view of the evolution of the concept of a God being " Good" and the Devil being " Evil".

The obviously early sources used in the O.T by the compilers have no concept of Satan as 100% Evil, it is only the stuff put in, or written after the Return from Babylon that contains it. "Job" of course is early, but the figure questioning god in this fable is obviously not thought of as actually existing as a "being". It is a long Metaphor, for teaching purposes, not a Book about the Spirit world to be taken literally.

There are Scholarly Papers available on-line that deal with the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish Theology, the Thread I mentioned I think has links to one or maybe two. Was the thread by Poster " How The Bible Was Created" ?? do a search, good luck ! The influence is undeniable, and of course is reflected in the Theology developed by Christian writers in the N.T, and later.

5

Controversy Early Day's Watchtower

by vienne in

some of you may be interested in this: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-watch-tower-and-koreshan-unity.html.

Phizzy

Thank you vienne, very interesting stuff, it shows how those Religious movements in the late 1900's were able to start, and grow in some measure, quite easily.

A charismatic man with a different view on what the Bible is about usually heads them , though there were similar women, most fizzled out eventually, but 7th Day Adventists, Latter Day Saints, Christian Science, Russell's W.T etc, all survived.

A good business plan was needed to survive, it would seem.

It is amazing how long people stuck to such movements, not only because of the advances in Scientific knowledge, but also the advancing Biblical Scholarship which from the 19th Century gradually became much more sophisticated and indeed Scientific in approach, and showed the Bible gradually to be more and more questionable.

I presume the same techniques were used as those used by the JW org and the Mormons , SDA's etc. that of persuading the adherents that they alone had the "Truth" and counter messages were to be ignored.

Fascinating stuff ! Thank you for your work !!

10

Welcome to the UK, where sharing a meme can get you arrested

by LoveUniHateExams in

er, yes, i'm not kidding.

if you share anything deemed 'grossly offensive' online you will be standing in a court before a judge if someone is offended, wets their pants, and complains.. some policeman in devon shared a meme of george floyd (not particularly nice, but illegal?!

) in a whatsapp message to his mates, some of whom were coppers, some not.. and someone complained and he's been arrested.. first: yes, george floyd memes are highly likely to offend at least some people.

Phizzy

Thanks Stan, maybe not if the person I was talking about decided to become " offended"!

Certainly now on Facebook you have to be careful to not alert the Algorithm by actually writing the word "cunt" for example, but you can freely write it thus : " C**T" and not end up in Facebook prison for a few days.

But yea, I'll stick with knob and bell-end if I feel they are strong enough ! Arsehole seems to get through O.K on FB by the way.

What is more worrying is the actual suppression of Truth because we may not dare to say something about a person that really needs to be said !

12

What day off the Week?

by BereanThinker7 in

does anybody know if the borg has ever done any articles on what day of the week they think jesus died?

i know most denominations think it was friday and i have also heard somewhat sensible arguments that it could be wednesday.

not that it matters weather one in a believer or not even.

Phizzy

The problem the Borg have to explain is that the Gospels contradict each other on the day and time of Jesus death. This is obviously a problem for other denominations too, and I have seen many Mental Gymnastics involved in trying to resolve it.

What Bible literalists do not acknowledge is that the Gospel writers, in common with nearly all other Bible writers, were not writing literal history or telling of events they necessarily believed happened. They wrote each with his own Agenda, so if that agenda demanded that Jesus died on a different day, or at a different hour to that of other Gospel writers it mattered not .

I cannot remember any Article by the JW Org that deals with this. If they did, they too would have to have some pretty fantastic Mental Gymnastics in play.