Posts by peacefulpete

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

aqwsed.....I thought I was clear. Philo in various places described the Logos as God in action, as the firstborn Son, as the creator of all things, (hence not part of creation) uncreated but not in the same sense as his Father. This mirrors later efforts to define Jesus as 'begotten not made'. Again, I'm not suggesting Philo anachronistically invented or believed the Trinity doctrine, merely that his own similar perspective necessitated a similar apophatic approach.

I really have no interest in judging 'scriptural support' only in learning and sharing how readers interpreted their religious writings.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The JW church has grown through aggressive proselytism/marketing and resisted schisms through hierarchically directed aggressive shunning, this has resulted in the demographics you seem to be lauding.

There is no doubt this formula has been successful. Their recent adoption of colorful modern media and internet will likely offset the hard work of many concerned, abused former members and fact checkers.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The Ethiopian-Eritrean Evangelical Church has16 million members. The Armenian Apostolic Church has 9 million. So I guess you can say the JWs influence lies somewhere between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Ethiopian-Eritrean Church.

19

New here

by AdamCzarnobay in

jw
friends

i left the organization in 2017.. was in several congregations in the north west of england.

i just wanted to say thank you to all of you that have posted on here over the years, it really helped me to see the truth about the organization.

i lurked here for many years under an anonymous login and then finally plucked up the courage to write my disassociation letter.. adam.

peacefulpete

Welcome.

39

I've done it: Christmas Lights Outside

by StephaneLaliberte in

lets see if that causes a problem.

i've been inactive for a very long time now (like 10+ years), so, i don't expect to hear anything from it, but my parents are worried i'll get df.

lets see what happens.

peacefulpete

Friends of ours celebrated, for and with us, our break from the controls of the WT. Emblematic of that break to personal freedom was our first Xmas tree. For us, the holidays are not only sharing in beautiful traditions but represent our choice to leave the church that forbid them.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

For another example of the Philonic use of the Logos concept:

(205) And the Father who created the universe has given to his archangelic and most ancient Word a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. (206) And the Word rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and You;"{69}{#nu 16:48.} neither being uncreate as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities, like a hostage, as it were, to both parties: a hostage to the Creator, as a pledge and security that the whole race would never fly off and revolt entirely, choosing disorder rather than order; and to the creature, to lead it to entertain a confident hope that the merciful God would not overlook his own work. For I will proclaim peaceful intelligence to the creation from him who has determined to destroy wars, namely God, who is ever the guardian of peace.

WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS XVII

Yes Philo attempted to address the oxymoronic issue of the uncreated/first born.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Regarding birthdays....If you suffer from overactive piety, just celebrate a 'child's' day (Job story) or your day of weaning, (Isaac story) or day of potty training, or day of first tooth....

If you enjoy the pizza on 'employee appreciation day' but begrudge your children a special day, you have your head up your ass.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The highly Influential Alexandrian schools can hardly be regarded as small and limited. But Kaleb's point that the Christian formulation of the Trinity doctrine was not the product of consultation with Jewish scholarship nor exclusively Jewish writings, is of course correct. My last comment was not made to prove the Trinity (or binarianism) was universally accepted within diverse Judaism, but as I said, that the Trinity was an attempt to interpret OT and related Jewish texts in light of more recent Christological elaborations in the figure of Jesus.

As regards how widely various forms of two power conceptions were, Schafer's book Two Powers in Heaven, argues convincingly that conceptions of God as manifesting multiple characters were pretty widespread, not a small fringe belief. Either way the OT descriptions and conflations of God with angels was a contributing element resulting in later christologies, eventuating in the Trinity doctrine.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I see someone gave me a negative. Was something in the comment incorrect?

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Why dont Jews believe in a trinity? I would think that the voice of the people that wrote the old testament would carry some weight and be taken into consideration by christians?

JoJo....The Trinity doctrine was a later formulation, one that did in some ways offer a harmonization of various texts. It did not however actually represent any previous conception of God. As has been mentioned a number of times, scores of passages in the OT and many intertestamental works conceived their God as of an unapproachable infinitude that worked indirectly with humans and creation through the agency of an emanation or aspect/virtue of himself.

Philo of Alexanderia famously honed the idea, but it was centuries older in some form.

For instance Philo explains the Genesis 1:26 passage where God says Adam had become 'like one of us' as referring to his plurality of 'virtues' but are likened to 'beings'.

The expression, "one of us," indicates a plurality of beings; unless indeed we are to suppose, that God is conversing with his own virtues, which he employed as instruments, as it were, to create the universe and all that is in it...But all these things are similitudes, and forms, and images, among men; but among the gods they are prototypes, models, indications, and more manifest examples of things which are somewhat obscure; but the unborn and uncreated Father joins himself to no one, except with the intention of extending the honour of his virtues.

Now Philo was certainly reading into the text, but he did it through the lens of Hellenized Judaism. (In reality the 'Like one of us' was a reference to the divine council of gods, but that is another topic.)

As former JWs it is difficult to accept that we had overlooked the many examples in the OT that personified the Dibbur/Word/Logos or the Kabod/Glory of God or the Angel of Yahweh etc. but we did. Interestingly after the Christian expansion of these concepts through the embodiment of Jesus, the Rabbis generally condemned the notion of emanations (second power theology) as too polytheistic sounding, though rarely the concept reappears in the Talmud, mainly as the Memra/Word.

So no, the Jews did not have the Trinity doctrine, yet the Trinity doctrine was in fact an attempt to explain many aspects of Jewish writings.