Posts by peacefulpete

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

If articulation of the nature of god is too complex for human minds, why do you insist on your point of view being the correct one? You are admitting that no one can understand it.
Maybe the complexity of the trinity arises because it makes no logical sense.

Your comment is quite reasonable. Religion is not supposed to be completely logical. There must always be some mystery, some counterintuitive aspect for the faith to stand apart from the mundane/profane. The degree of acceptable mystery has varied over time and culture. In this example, Christian theologians inherited tradition, terminology and metaphor that were merged into a single figure. That required new theological definitions. Son, doesn't mean what it means for humans, for example.

As we come from a faith spawned in the 'Rationalist Movement' we have little taste for mystery. Our beliefs were framed in a more concrete, seemingly rational way. To do that however, the framers of this religion ignored scores of passages that didn't fit the model. They created a new God, a God that fit 19th century standards, a God that never existed before. A God our minds could embrace. Understanding ancient theology requires a paradigm shift for us, acceptance of mystery and the irrational.

The theologians that framed the Trinity doctrine, had done the same, they created a new deity that had never been conceived in precisely the same way before. They however, selected different texts to emphasize, those that focused upon the deity of Christ. They did however embrace the mystery in a way many 19th century readers could not.

In the end neither model accurately represented the texts. That is because the texts reveal an evolving character, not a singular nature or personality.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

My involvement on this thread and others has been to demonstrate the stages of theological development. The Trinity was not the result of divine 'revelation' nor was it a shocking pagan deviation from Jewish thought. No, it was neither. Jewish conceptions of God had for centuries included ideas that God was not alone. In some sense God had partners in his activity, partners that bridged the material word for him, in some cases partners that were actually God themselves. The sophistication of this idea reached new heights under the Alexandrian school represented by Philo. This is the same community that created the LXX.

When the sect that became called Christianity declared that this 'partner' in God's works had come to earth and died, they were creating a new arrangement to an old tune.

Joey....The paradox you are describing is not unique to the Trinity Doctrine. As I just tried to show, the same seemingly contradictory language was within Philo's work. The Logos was God, the Logos was the creator, and at the same time the Logos owed his existence to the Father and the Logos expressed adoration for the Father of all. Natural language fails to convey what Philo was trying to describe, so he, like the later Christian theologians, resort to apophatic language. For both parties it was deemed easier to understand the Logos in terms of what it was not. It was not like us, it was not a relationship like anything or anyone else. It is not logical; it is 'obscure' 'similitudes and images'.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

aqwsed.....I thought I was clear. Philo in various places described the Logos as God in action, as the firstborn Son, as the creator of all things, (hence not part of creation) uncreated but not in the same sense as his Father. This mirrors later efforts to define Jesus as 'begotten not made'. Again, I'm not suggesting Philo anachronistically invented or believed the Trinity doctrine, merely that his own similar perspective necessitated a similar apophatic approach.

I really have no interest in judging 'scriptural support' only in learning and sharing how readers interpreted their religious writings.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The JW church has grown through aggressive proselytism/marketing and resisted schisms through hierarchically directed aggressive shunning, this has resulted in the demographics you seem to be lauding.

There is no doubt this formula has been successful. Their recent adoption of colorful modern media and internet will likely offset the hard work of many concerned, abused former members and fact checkers.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The Ethiopian-Eritrean Evangelical Church has16 million members. The Armenian Apostolic Church has 9 million. So I guess you can say the JWs influence lies somewhere between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Ethiopian-Eritrean Church.

19

New here

by AdamCzarnobay in

jw
friends

i left the organization in 2017.. was in several congregations in the north west of england.

i just wanted to say thank you to all of you that have posted on here over the years, it really helped me to see the truth about the organization.

i lurked here for many years under an anonymous login and then finally plucked up the courage to write my disassociation letter.. adam.

peacefulpete

Welcome.

39

I've done it: Christmas Lights Outside

by StephaneLaliberte in

lets see if that causes a problem.

i've been inactive for a very long time now (like 10+ years), so, i don't expect to hear anything from it, but my parents are worried i'll get df.

lets see what happens.

peacefulpete

Friends of ours celebrated, for and with us, our break from the controls of the WT. Emblematic of that break to personal freedom was our first Xmas tree. For us, the holidays are not only sharing in beautiful traditions but represent our choice to leave the church that forbid them.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

For another example of the Philonic use of the Logos concept:

(205) And the Father who created the universe has given to his archangelic and most ancient Word a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. (206) And the Word rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and You;"{69}{#nu 16:48.} neither being uncreate as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities, like a hostage, as it were, to both parties: a hostage to the Creator, as a pledge and security that the whole race would never fly off and revolt entirely, choosing disorder rather than order; and to the creature, to lead it to entertain a confident hope that the merciful God would not overlook his own work. For I will proclaim peaceful intelligence to the creation from him who has determined to destroy wars, namely God, who is ever the guardian of peace.

WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS XVII

Yes Philo attempted to address the oxymoronic issue of the uncreated/first born.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Regarding birthdays....If you suffer from overactive piety, just celebrate a 'child's' day (Job story) or your day of weaning, (Isaac story) or day of potty training, or day of first tooth....

If you enjoy the pizza on 'employee appreciation day' but begrudge your children a special day, you have your head up your ass.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The highly Influential Alexandrian schools can hardly be regarded as small and limited. But Kaleb's point that the Christian formulation of the Trinity doctrine was not the product of consultation with Jewish scholarship nor exclusively Jewish writings, is of course correct. My last comment was not made to prove the Trinity (or binarianism) was universally accepted within diverse Judaism, but as I said, that the Trinity was an attempt to interpret OT and related Jewish texts in light of more recent Christological elaborations in the figure of Jesus.

As regards how widely various forms of two power conceptions were, Schafer's book Two Powers in Heaven, argues convincingly that conceptions of God as manifesting multiple characters were pretty widespread, not a small fringe belief. Either way the OT descriptions and conflations of God with angels was a contributing element resulting in later christologies, eventuating in the Trinity doctrine.