ukpimo...Are Joseph Smith and Muhamed analogous to Jesus? Some have argued so, but others see a distinction. Jesus is described in divine terms throughout the story. He has supernatural abilities of passing through crowds and walls, he has ability to see the future and thoughts, he manipulates matter, he claims all god's attributes such as authority over life and forgiveness. While followers of Smith and Muhamed revere them for their proximity to the divine, they were not depicted as divine, supernatural beings. Jesus is more analogous to an Apollo or Shiva. Neither of whom are assumed historical despite their stories locating them on earth.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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how do you feel about the use of the name Jehovah now?
by enoughisenough infor those who still believe in god and the bible, how do you feel/think about the name jehovah now?
i am one who never wanted to bring reproach on god's name.
i will admit using the word jehovah now makes me feel rather icky...like i am promoting a lie of sorts.
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peacefulpete
The OP was asking about the feelings associated with the pronunciation "Jehovah".
Some of the responses so far reveal a deep attachment to the word. One of you outright said,
Jehovah's name is very important to me
That is hardly surprising. Years or decades of reciting and repeating the word has left many former JWs with a lingering fondness/attachment. A scholarly position makes clear that the name in usual form was a two-syllable word. This has been rehashed in great depth on this site. I'm of the opinion based upon the oldest extrabiblical evidence that the earliest form was a single syllable, Yah and likely a geographical element. However, a two syllabic form is certainly ancient and likely a theophoric reference to either his being a storm god "blow' or a 'jealous/passionate' one. There are scholarly arguments for both. It's possible, maybe even likely, they are both correct.
However, the issue for former JWs is not a simple scholarly debate. It's years of indoctrination and cultlike controls embodied in a single word that we thought identified us as special.
Every sect has a language unique to itself that serve as 'trigger words'. Trigger words are special words, or special use of words, that elicit feelings of loyalty, or identity. The word 'Jehovah' is perhaps the biggest example for former JWs. Many exit counselors recommend former members of high control groups avoid the use of trigger words. For that reason, many of use a mocking form of the word like 'Jehober' or for those attracted to scholarship, 'Yahweh'. It helps distance the topic from the emotional burden of the past.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
I know it sounds insulting, but religion based upon physical people are idolizations. Religions drawn from spiritual conceptions, metaphor and symbolism are spiritual faiths.
The instructors of the ancient faiths of Egypt, the near east and the far east understood their stories of battling gods and miraculous births were dramatizations, colorful teaching tools to instill belief and fear of the unseen. Ironically literalizing Christians mistake their own as history while claiming a higher faith.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
For if a person called Jesus Christ didn't exist at one stage, then Christians made themselves up from some literary fandom they created, which doesn't give much credibility to the fact that they had enemies who actively opposed them in the first century, including the Romans, who alluded to the fact they were followers of Jesus. So if the Jews were lying and the Romans were lying, my God maybe we should question if the Romans and the Jews back then ever existed!
You have formed multiple lines of 'evidence' from the same story for which there is no evidence occurred. Dr Julius No can't be used to prove the existence of James bond. Nor can the CIA or MI6. They are elements of the same story.
It seems many, including skeptics, have a hard time believing that the Jesus of the Gospels could have been an euhemerization (or possibly more accurately a dramatization) of a spirit being believed to have existed. This is strange to me. Numerous stories in the OT depict Yahweh as a guy walking around his garden, eating and talking with people. Most believers understand those stories as dramatizations. The Jews had enemies resulting from belief in Yahweh. That is not proof Yahweh walked around on earth. It's not difficult. Is not the same possible, even reasonable, for believers in a spirit Christ? The story is manifestly drawn from source OT source material, everything from the human name/s given him, his place of birth, to the stage setting on Mt of Olives, it's a dramatization.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
The point of the above, is the "words of Jesus" were not fixed. They were freely adapted and expanded.
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
Matt 16: "In reply he said to them: “When evening falls, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red,’ and in the morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red but gloomy.’
Here this author has taken his source "Mark' and followed the immediate setting closely, the response is to a test from Pharisees.
Luke 12: 54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Here this author has removed the setting and relocated the conversation as one of a series. Specifically, he is said to be addressing the 'crowd'. Interestingly the author also offers a different weather pattern. It has been suggested this might be because that red/morning meaning rain does not apply to all regions and the author made his own weather prediction. Also interesting is that the manuscripts of Matt are split on this. Many translations reflect this with brackets. The variant form follows Mark in having no weather commentary at all.
he answered by saying to them, '•An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign"
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
Jeffro... The last section of book of Daniel was reinterpreted as referring to Rome prior to Christian usage. The surprising turns of history that saw the resolution of the Antiochene crisis but not the hoped for end of troubles, kept the work alive and open to reinterpretation. It may be the explanation for the insertion of an additional 70 years into 9:26,27 in the Old Greek translation. Even as that passed, fans of the work took the Antiochus IV figure to be typological, prefiguring yet future enemies of the Jews. It was of course taken that way by Christian writers in the figure of the 'Antichrist'.
4 Ezra for example shows the interpretation was at odds with the one offered in Daniel itself:
"The eagle [i.e. Rome] which you saw coming up from the sea is the fourth kingdom which appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. But it was not explained to him as I now explain it to you" (12:11-12).
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189
What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?
by Touchofgrey inis there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.
the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.
i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.
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peacefulpete
Lots of this stuff has been dealt with in great detail here before. As has been said, there is NO contemporary evidence of Jesus as a man walking around Palestine. The Josephus references often suggested are not what they have been made to appear to be. The Testimonium Flavianum (book 18) is a counterfeit addition. It interrupts the narrative, it uses non-Flalvian language, it uses wording only a Christain would, and did not exist prior to Eusebius. He likely inserted it. The second reference cited (book 20) the 'brother of Jesus' line, is lifted from context. Reading the context, we find a rivalry for the High Priesthood (anointed). Jesus was a high priest whose brother James, also high priest, was killed.
It became popular a few decades ago in the spirit of the original Jesus Seminar to take the Gospel versions and winnow out elements that are obvious embellishments to arrive at what they imagined was a historical core. That project ultimately failed for a basic reason, the nature of the literature itself. Literature generally falls into a category that represents its agenda and purpose. Despite the later interpretation of the Marcan story (and dozens of variations) as basically 'biographical', the work itself is more of an 'epic' prose story. As such there need not have been any actual historical biographical core. The author's use of character, place and time are part of the creativity of the story.
It would be similar to the collection of Daniel court tales in what are now chapts 1-6 in the Bible.
(The stories were part of an ancient Daniel cycle of legends in circulation perhaps as long ago as Ugaritic legend of Aqhat, if the two can be connected. What is certain is that the Daniel/Danel character inspired a body of literature prior to the apocalyptic chapters written under/during the Maccabees. The Qumran community had a special fondness for the character and preserved some of these stories. Further it is often missed that the David legends include a Daniel, (the second son of David, I Chron 3:1) who Rabbinic legend describe as extremely wise and among the 4 most righteous men of history, consumed with study of the Torah. (TB Bava Batra 17, TB Brachot 4). IMO, this character may represent the Danel of Ezekiel. Bible literalists might do well to accept this, as Ezekiel was said to have been written prior to the story depicted in the book of Daniel.)
Back on topic; it would be an error to attempt to take 'epics' and attempt to winnow out the magical parts and assume the rest to be historical. Hopefully that makes sense.
Unfortunately, that 'historist' approach is still popular. Even in regard the Testimonium Flavianum there are many hypotheticals of how to remove the most overtly Christian words so as to make a plausible genuine Flavian comment. This still ignores the absence of mention of it for hundreds of years, the interruptive nature and the abundant motive for its insertion. It also forgets the parallel Christain interpolations found in other places in Josephus that demonstrate the practice.
Members of the Jesus Seminar in time came to recognize that removing the magical and then removing the OT pesher exegesis material, left nothing. The story was 'epic' not 'biography'. Thomas Thompson famously took up that argument and published it.
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Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)
by slimboyfat inthinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.
1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.
not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.
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peacefulpete
My feelings of sadness are genuine. Human suffering, especially unnecessary, must always be forward in our minds. Bringing to justice those who inflict it is what keeps us civilized.
Martyrdom is a powerful story—one that inspires and captivates. The willingness to die for one’s beliefs is a narrative celebrated on monuments, war memorials, and museums throughout the Western world.
Very true. We romanticize martyrdom. My comments simply emphasize that martyrdom is not always a simple case of individual resolve to justice or love, and it is certainly not evidence of the truthfulness of their message, as this thread was about.
History is filled with martyrs for causes few of us would support.
For instance, JWs see their blood policy victims as martyrs. While we may recognize the right to self-determination, we probably don't idolize those who have died.
Humanity's best hope is education and compassionate action, not isolation and apocalypticism.