This exercise has at least demonstrated the futility of debating doctrine with a church that has had 1800 years of eisegesis practice. JWs are amateurs by comparison.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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peacefulpete
deleted by me, because what's the point.
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What Is The Purpose Of YORWW Having A Creed & The Forty (40) Basic, Fundamental Truth Requirement?
by Littleleslie inwhat is the purpose of yorww having a creed & the forty (40) basic, fundamental truth requirement?.
many people have wondered about the above question and our stand on the forty (40) basic, fundamental truths, and why we make it a requirement for individual jehovah's witnesses to believe these ideas before...before they can join our five (5) discussion boards.well, its called the yorww congregation, isn't it?its a congregation of like believers and persons of like faith.
(matthew 18:20) so they are supposed to agree on their beliefs, exactly as first century christians agreed upon their beliefs.
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peacefulpete
Again just a $40 book to save yourself, what a deal.
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What Is The Purpose Of YORWW Having A Creed & The Forty (40) Basic, Fundamental Truth Requirement?
by Littleleslie inwhat is the purpose of yorww having a creed & the forty (40) basic, fundamental truth requirement?.
many people have wondered about the above question and our stand on the forty (40) basic, fundamental truths, and why we make it a requirement for individual jehovah's witnesses to believe these ideas before...before they can join our five (5) discussion boards.well, its called the yorww congregation, isn't it?its a congregation of like believers and persons of like faith.
(matthew 18:20) so they are supposed to agree on their beliefs, exactly as first century christians agreed upon their beliefs.
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peacefulpete
From what I can gather, the poster regards themselves as God's prophet sent to gather Jehovah's Witnesses (the true religion) into an online 'wilderness' to receive 'Divine Instruction' until the WT is disciplined sufficiently for being an NGO. I see they have suffered from a messiah complex for many years. I don't think we are doing them any favors enabling them.
As members of the YORWW Congregation, we believe and teach Jehovah's Witnesses are God's Name People, established as such in 1931,....Therefore, in harmony with the powerful judgment messages of the prophets of old, yes, our prophetic message today as shown above, is called THE "REPORT",....
So a "voice" that speaks from the "wilderness" point of view, then has to be viewed as coming from a source OUTSIDE of the camp of Israel -- the voice of a prophet of God. Therefore, if God were to raise up a "prophet" then in our day, during times of National Apostasy to warn the people, he would no doubt raise him up from the "wilderness" point of view, thus being seen by the majority of people as being OUTSIDE the camp of Israel or apostate nation. Also, as we might rightly expect, this "voice from the wilderness" would urge "repentance" like John the Baptist did during his day. And yet, we would rightly expect this "prophet" to be seen or perceived by the nation as a whole as a distant "voice", far away from the nation itself. This "voice" would no doubt be generally considered by the religious leaders of that time and general populous, to be an OUTSIDER to the nation of Israel, thereby speaking from a non-acceptable source or point of origin...namely, the "wilderness." Think about it.THE YORWW ARRANGEMENT AS GOD'S SPECIAL "SANCTUARY" OR "TABERNACLE" FOR ALL MANKIND! -
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Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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peacefulpete
Acts 16:6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
Phil 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
Here are 2 examples of the primary emanations of God used interchangeably. Holy Spirit is perceived essentially the same as the Christ in certain roles. Similarly, Jesus would 'always be with them' and he would 'send another, the Holy Spirit'.
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How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat infor jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.
but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?
new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
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2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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peacefulpete
I can see the church growing, unrest in the world is fuel for escapist faiths. The modern media and slick website are bound to be persuasive. They have invested heavily, and I see no reason to doubt they are seeing results.
My first concern is why so many of us care. We know if the WT didn't exist people would just run to something else. If seeing our old church continue to grow steals our joy, they still control us.
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Apostles
by peacefulpete inhear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.
however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.
for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.
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peacefulpete
Very interesting take on Matt 10.
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Apostles
by peacefulpete inhear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.
however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.
for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.
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peacefulpete
Touchofgrey....I don't think Paul originated the movement. He speaks of those before him. Such as Junia. The origins of the movement are lost to time. I've long said I understand it as a 'soft start'. Likely impossible to point exactly when a spinoff from a form of Hellenized Judaism actually occurred. Alvar Ellegard suggests it was the crucifixion of the Christ figure that was original to Paul. Who knows, but he does seem to say it was his defining belief. The renouncing of the Law seems to have been a big pill for his predecessors as well, so it seems Paul may have taken that matter to new levels.
It's good to remember that even in the glossed history in the book of Acts the movement had not adopted the name Christian from its start.
But as you said the Gospel narrative changed everything. Whether as a didactic play or text it fleshed out the story. Not only had the Logos descended and been killed, but he spent decades living out OT stories and condemning Judaism.
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Apostles
by peacefulpete inhear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.
however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.
for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.
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peacefulpete
Thanks Phizzy. That was the direction I was heading. I suspect it was part of the process of cementing control though claims of apostolic succession. That wasn't an idea immediately seized upon.
I also wanted to mention Irenaeus's intro to his third book Against Heresies, wherein he quotes Luke 10 (the sending of the 70/72) as being the words the Jesus said to the 'apostles'. He continues to use the term when recounting the Pentecost scene of 120 'apostles' getting 'perfect knowledge' . What's especially surprising is it was part of his argument against 'heresies' in which he enumerates a succession of church leadership in Rome. In short, he seems to be using the term 'apostles' as meaning first generation Christian. Peter and Paul are described as 'the two most glorious apostles'.
Call to mind then, the things which I have stated in the two preceding books, and, taking these in connection with them, thou shalt have from me a very copious refutation of all the heretics; and faithfully and strenuously shalt thou resist them in defense of the only true and life-giving faith, which the Church has received from the apostles and imparted to her sons. For the Lord of all gave to His apostles the power of the Gospel, through whom also we have known the truth, that is, the doctrine of the Son of God; to whom also did the Lord declare: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me, and Him that sent Me." (Luke 10:16 story of the 70).... But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.
Even in this context of attempting to argue for the superiority of his Church's doctrine due to succession legends, he seems to be using the term 'apostle' to describe more than 12 guys in the Gospels.
The growth of this concept obviously really gained a footing after the Gospels were written. While the names of the 12 (to match 12 tribes) obviously were not terribly important, the inclusion of a few historical persons into the list, (Peter, James and a John) was necessary.
Once again, we are stymied by uncertainty of dating and the originality of all of our material, but it seems clear that the final solidification of the concept of 12 Apostles as the foundation of the Church took some time.