Rather than obsessing about the death of the cult, focus on the life you are free to live.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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19
Reddit thread: ‘This Cult is Dying and it Brings Me Joy’
by LongHairGal inthis is an excellent thread to read that i saw yesterday and the poster hits the nail on the head and tells it so well.
he is really knocking pimi witnesses and has a lot of well deserved criticisms about them.. he says he hopes at this point that they never wake up….
i am inclined to feel the same.
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11
Fashion in Heaven
by peacefulpete inwhy is it that fashions are assumed to have stayed the same in heaven for thousands of years?
you'd think that after wearing the same boring robe for eternity you'd crave something different.
yet no, angels and god are still wearing the same white onesie they had when they vacationed on earth with abraham.
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peacefulpete
Now you are just being silly.
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Fashion in Heaven
by peacefulpete inwhy is it that fashions are assumed to have stayed the same in heaven for thousands of years?
you'd think that after wearing the same boring robe for eternity you'd crave something different.
yet no, angels and god are still wearing the same white onesie they had when they vacationed on earth with abraham.
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peacefulpete
Why is it that fashions are assumed to have stayed the same in Heaven for thousands of years? You'd think that after wearing the same boring robe for eternity you'd crave something different. Yet no, angels and God are still wearing the same white onesie they had when they vacationed on earth with Abraham. I'm sure they are comfortable, no concerns about short inseams or elastic waistbands. I imagine they are easy to loosen up after a good hearty meal of manna. No risk being seen with pants button undone!
But now that i think about it the Hindu heavenly beings have no fear of flare or color. They are decked with blues and yellows and greens from head to toe! Some might say fabulous!
I wonder......Luke 4:24:
While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.
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37
Prepare to get Pelted by Symbolic Hailstones
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/idhmflud3p4?si=9xc4svrhxslduwvz.
so david schafer a member of the teaching commitee and a helper to the governing body has come out yesterday with a new video that goes through the king of the north, the hailstones message and other things in the wake of the possibility of a ww3 and especially now that tensions are escalating with russia so he is making quite a few end time arguments and i will be expanding on those one by one but today let's see what he has about the hailstones message of the end(video) so this is the paragraph in question, paragraph 14 from article 20 of the watchtower 2020 study edition: "sometime after the start of the great tribulation, “the kings of the entire inhabited earth” will form a coalition of nations.
(rev.
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peacefulpete
Apoc. of Abraham: And He said to me: “What is desired in thine heart I will tell thee, because thou hast sought to see the ten plagues which I have prepared for the heathen and have prepared beforehand at the passing over of the twelfth hour of the earth. Hear what I divulge to thee, so shall it come to pass: the first (is) pain of great distress; the second, conflagration of many cities; the third, destruction and pestilence of animals ; the fourth, hunger of the whole world and of its people9 ; the fifth by destruction among its rulers, destruction by earthquake and the sword; the sixth, multiplication of hail and snow; the seventh, the wild beasts will be their grave; the eighth, hunger and pestilence will alternate with their destruction; the ninth, punishment by the sword and flight in distress; the tenth, thunder and voices and destructive earthquake.
1 Enoch: 14.8 And the vision appeared to me as follows: Behold, clouds called me in the vision, and mist called me. And the path of the stars, and flashes of lightning, hastened me and drove me. And, in the vision, winds caused me to fly, and hastened me, and lifted me up into Heaven.14.9 And I proceeded until I came near a wall, which was made of hailstones, and a tongue of fire surrounded it, and it began to make me afraid.14.10 And I went into the tongue of fire, and came near to a large house, which was built of hailstones, and the wall of that house was like a mosaic of hailstones, and its floor was snow.14.11 Its roof was like the path of the stars, and flashes of lightning, and among them were fiery Cherubim, and their sky was like water.14.12 And there was a fire burning around its wall, and its door was ablaze with fire.
81: And I saw the four angels who have the power to bring the destruction of the world, and I saw the destruction of the great hail, which fell from the sky. And they took their stand at the gates of heaven, and they gave orders to the heavenly hosts to bring forth the winds of destruction."
2 Baruch: And the heavens shall be opened, and the mighty ones shall come forth from their dwelling places, and hail shall fall upon the earth, and the earth shall be filled with the sound of thunder and the voice of the great wrath."
Sib Oracles: And the heavens shall fall, and the mighty hail shall descend on the earth, and the sun shall be darkened.
Test. of Naphtali: I will call down upon them a storm of hail and will send down upon them a great fire."
Jubilees: And the Lord sent a great hailstorm upon the earth, and the children of Noah were afraid."
Unsurprising there was a recurring storm motif including the use of hailstones from heaven to destroy God's enemies among apocalyptic writers.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
HTBWC....Yes we are off topic but, I guess there isn't much more to say on the OP anyway. I think it is unquestionable that cross cultural synthesis took place, not just in the Gospels but as you have elsewhere mentioned, in the Pentateuch through to the present (the Pesach meal rituals). The Homer and Euripides links are undeniably present throughout the Gospel narratives and Acts. More than 20 years ago I posted threads here about the recurring use of the expression 'kicking against the goads' when a mortal opposes a god, as well as story elements like earthquakes and prison escapes etc. The debate is whether this is simple cultural, and idiomatic, even motif exchange or conscious supersessionism that MacDonald suggests. I heartily agree with MacDonald on the layered nature of John. It clearly has been reordered, redacted, and expanded. We have to assume also edited for content.
The expression 'interpretatio Romana' often arises in religious history studies of those times. Parallel gods' names were often used interchangeably, not just names but characteristics and stories as well. Jews did this throughout the diaspora and in fact was an ancient practice, (e.g. El, Baal, Yahweh). Therefore, it becomes a nuanced thing when we see parallels, separating what was consciously commandeered from a less conscious emulation.
Regarding 1 Cor 11, I have wanted to write a thread on that. I've read some quite surprising suggestions.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Joey jojo...It's certainly not everyone's bag. Some folks really do enjoy culture more than others. I have friends that eat drink and sleep Norwegian. Another that is absorbed in Polish culture. That's probably not a perfect parallel but maybe close enough for me to understand the appeal. History, kinship and commonality. Centuries of oppression, has to be a powerful glue within the community as well.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Great thanks
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
I'm out of my element, but some research seems less than conclusive regarding Passover Sedar meal customs of the first century or before. It seems most of the tradition dates to after the loss of the temple. I find 'dipping' into vinegar, wine/water and charoset a fruit/wine paste with many variations.
I found in the Haggadah:
He takes out the matsa in the order that he placed them, the broken one between the two whole ones; he holds the three of them in his hand and blesses "ha-motsi" with the intention to take from the top one and "on eating matsa" with the intention of eating from the broken one. Afterwards, he breaks off a kazayit from the top whole one and a second kazayit from the broken one and he dips them into salt and eats both while reclining.Pesach Haggadah, Motzi Matzah 4
How do I understand this?
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15
Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Glad others find some of this interesting. Also, glad you came back. We may not agree on everything, but I enjoy your perspective.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb.... An interesting take on John's version. An issue for me is that John is distinctly breaking from the Synoptics by having the meal not a Passover Sedar, but a meal shared on the day of Preparation. The Synoptics while expressly identifying the meal as the Passover do not have the connection between the act of dipping bread and Satan entering Judas found in John, so if your hypothesis was intended by the author of John, it was original to him. John has layers of redaction; I'm not therefore suggesting your hypothesis is proven wrong by its present text dating the story to before the Passover. One or the other element might be secondary.
As far as Jews writing for Jews, the consensus is that Mark was written by someone not familiar with Jewish practice in Judea for a Roman audience. Matt is a Judaizing revision of Mark but still makes errors (or liberties with) the OT throughout. He also has Jesus say,
"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man"; words that clearly show low regard for Kosher rules about diet much less salting bread on the Passover.
I could go on, but in the end the stories were framed with an imperfect understanding of Judaism and Judea and, are either ignorant of, or takes liberties with historical and geographical realities for narrative/theological purposes.
Ultimately, the point of the OP was simply the evolution of this small detail in the story, and your suggestion that John is linking the salting of bread with his abandonment, this might then be a further development not from Synoptic sources.