I'm reassured by public statements by China that call for restraint. Honestly I slightly question if China might not be wishing to see a weakened Russia. It wasn't that long ago that they were at war.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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44
President-Elect Trump Tears Into Biden For Making World 'Vastly Dangerous'; World War 3 Warning!
by Esoteric inlive streaming i trump tears into biden for making world 'vastly dangerous'; world war 3 warning!!!
(times of india).
u.s president elect donald trump tears into joe biden for having made the world more dangerous than ever before with the threat of world war 3 closer than ever before.
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President-Elect Trump Tears Into Biden For Making World 'Vastly Dangerous'; World War 3 Warning!
by Esoteric inlive streaming i trump tears into biden for making world 'vastly dangerous'; world war 3 warning!!!
(times of india).
u.s president elect donald trump tears into joe biden for having made the world more dangerous than ever before with the threat of world war 3 closer than ever before.
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peacefulpete
Russia is already firing deep into Ukraine and Ukraine has already used its own few long-range weapons into Russia. Russia is upset that this adjustment by Ukraine's allies complicates their strategy. The word 'escalation' is slippery. It could easily be used, and was used, by Russia as soon as Ukraine resisted occupation. Is effective resistance 'escalation'? depends upon who side you ask. Russia is not concerned about its 'escalation' of the war, by securing N.Korean soldiers and weapons. Iranian weapons as well. It is upset that their aggression is being effectively countered in response.
I'm not an armchair general, but I can see when language is tooled as propaganda. It seems apparent that Russia is stretched to the point of asking for foot soldiers. Putin appears to be waiting for the West to just roll over and let him keep the strategically important and resource rich areas he has invaded. The recent adjustment is not a 'game changer' in the sense of bringing a swift end to the war. Ukraine is still in a fight for its life. Its allies have simply given it new options.
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President-Elect Trump Tears Into Biden For Making World 'Vastly Dangerous'; World War 3 Warning!
by Esoteric inlive streaming i trump tears into biden for making world 'vastly dangerous'; world war 3 warning!!!
(times of india).
u.s president elect donald trump tears into joe biden for having made the world more dangerous than ever before with the threat of world war 3 closer than ever before.
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peacefulpete
No it means they recognize their critical need for support of allies and respect rules of war. The US, UK and others set conditions of use on weapons they supplied for their defense. Russia responded by backing many key military targets away from the border beyond the limits imposed and began using longer range weapons on civilian targets. There are still conditions upon the allies' weapons, the details are not public for good reason. Some have concluded that the US ATACMS might only have been approved for use in Kursk region primarily, as that has how they have been used so far. Conditions change in response to necessity. Ukraine does have some domestically produced long range weapons and so far, have aimed at only legitimate targets deeper into Russia.
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President-Elect Trump Tears Into Biden For Making World 'Vastly Dangerous'; World War 3 Warning!
by Esoteric inlive streaming i trump tears into biden for making world 'vastly dangerous'; world war 3 warning!!!
(times of india).
u.s president elect donald trump tears into joe biden for having made the world more dangerous than ever before with the threat of world war 3 closer than ever before.
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peacefulpete
I couldn't help but see some of those still images and think of WT covers. Everyone knows what war is, but a steady diet of images of nuclear bombs will mess with your objectivity. The reality is the decisions are Ukraine's to make. They know the situation and the strategy. Russia has exploited the lack of range of Ukrainian weaponry. Their allies have effectively untied their hands. Russia is doing all they can to make it appear that the West are the aggressors. (gaslighting) Some here have swallowed that line. Trump is parroting Russian propaganda. They have used this same gameplan before successfully. When the west condemned the invasion of Crimea in 2014, Putin threatened nuclear war if the west tried to interfere. That was the real beginning of the Ukraine/Russia war.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
HTBWC....Yes we are off topic but, I guess there isn't much more to say on the OP anyway. I think it is unquestionable that cross cultural synthesis took place, not just in the Gospels but as you have elsewhere mentioned, in the Pentateuch through to the present (the Pesach meal rituals). The Homer and Euripides links are undeniably present throughout the Gospel narratives and Acts. More than 20 years ago I posted threads here about the recurring use of the expression 'kicking against the goads' when a mortal opposes a god, as well as story elements like earthquakes and prison escapes etc. The debate is whether this is simple cultural, and idiomatic, even motif exchange or conscious supersessionism that MacDonald suggests. I heartily agree with MacDonald on the layered nature of John. It clearly has been reordered, redacted, and expanded. We have to assume also edited for content.
The expression 'interpretatio Romana' often arises in religious history studies of those times. Parallel gods' names were often used interchangeably, not just names but characteristics and stories as well. Jews did this throughout the diaspora and in fact was an ancient practice, (e.g. El, Baal, Yahweh). Therefore, it becomes a nuanced thing when we see parallels, separating what was consciously commandeered from a less conscious emulation.
Regarding 1 Cor 11, I have wanted to write a thread on that. I've read some quite surprising suggestions.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Joey jojo...It's certainly not everyone's bag. Some folks really do enjoy culture more than others. I have friends that eat drink and sleep Norwegian. Another that is absorbed in Polish culture. That's probably not a perfect parallel but maybe close enough for me to understand the appeal. History, kinship and commonality. Centuries of oppression, has to be a powerful glue within the community as well.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Great thanks
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15
Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
I'm out of my element, but some research seems less than conclusive regarding Passover Sedar meal customs of the first century or before. It seems most of the tradition dates to after the loss of the temple. I find 'dipping' into vinegar, wine/water and charoset a fruit/wine paste with many variations.
I found in the Haggadah:
He takes out the matsa in the order that he placed them, the broken one between the two whole ones; he holds the three of them in his hand and blesses "ha-motsi" with the intention to take from the top one and "on eating matsa" with the intention of eating from the broken one. Afterwards, he breaks off a kazayit from the top whole one and a second kazayit from the broken one and he dips them into salt and eats both while reclining.Pesach Haggadah, Motzi Matzah 4
How do I understand this?
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Glad others find some of this interesting. Also, glad you came back. We may not agree on everything, but I enjoy your perspective.
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Dip Anyone?
by peacefulpete ina quick comment regarding how subsequent gospel writers often felt an irresistible need to clarify or expand upon their sources.
in the last supper story, the gospel that came to be named after mark 14 has jesus declare that one of the twelve who eats with him from the same bowl will betray him.
17 and evening having come, he cometh with the twelve,18 and as they are reclining, and eating, jesus said, `verily i say to you -- one of you, who is eating with me -- shall deliver me up.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb.... An interesting take on John's version. An issue for me is that John is distinctly breaking from the Synoptics by having the meal not a Passover Sedar, but a meal shared on the day of Preparation. The Synoptics while expressly identifying the meal as the Passover do not have the connection between the act of dipping bread and Satan entering Judas found in John, so if your hypothesis was intended by the author of John, it was original to him. John has layers of redaction; I'm not therefore suggesting your hypothesis is proven wrong by its present text dating the story to before the Passover. One or the other element might be secondary.
As far as Jews writing for Jews, the consensus is that Mark was written by someone not familiar with Jewish practice in Judea for a Roman audience. Matt is a Judaizing revision of Mark but still makes errors (or liberties with) the OT throughout. He also has Jesus say,
"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man"; words that clearly show low regard for Kosher rules about diet much less salting bread on the Passover.
I could go on, but in the end the stories were framed with an imperfect understanding of Judaism and Judea and, are either ignorant of, or takes liberties with historical and geographical realities for narrative/theological purposes.
Ultimately, the point of the OP was simply the evolution of this small detail in the story, and your suggestion that John is linking the salting of bread with his abandonment, this might then be a further development not from Synoptic sources.