Posts by peacefulpete

4

The Pella Deception: Watchtower May 2025

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/4otnshkqdbi?si=5ilzez_lxqscp1ww.

so, in the latest may 2025 study watchtower, the writers of this magazine, they have another go at revising church history for their own ends.

they take a well-documented historical event—the flight of christians from jerusalem before its destruction in 70 ad - and twisting it into a convenient narrative to reinforce blind obedience to organizational leadership.

peacefulpete

There is no doubt the WT writers are making the most of this story. I have to believe many thoughtful readers will see the 4th century Eusebius quote describes a 'revelation', a divine vision, given to nameless 'approved men'. Whatever you make of the quote, this hardly fits the WT narrative. Or are they yet believing that personal revelations are occurring, and they alone are the recipients?

They also are 'quote mining' as Epiphanius about the same time credits the escape to an 'angel' delivering a message. That certainly does not fit the WT narrative. Anyone claiming to receive angelic messages or revelations today not only would be removed from the church they would be directed to a mental health clinic.

This has been a topic for a few threads lately. In short, the flight to Pella legend cannot be confirmed, nor can it be claimed to fulfill anything from the Gospels. The Marcan writer/redactor likely drew from recent history for the 'flee to mountains' motif. Famously:

1 Maccabees 2:

6 When he observed the sacrilegious acts that were being committed in Judah and Jerusalem, 7 [d]he said: “Alas! Why was I born to witness the ruin of my people and the ruin of the holy city, and to sit by idly while she has been delivered over to her enemies, and the sanctuary given into the hands of foreigners?....28 "Then he and his sons fled to the mountains and left all that they had in the town."

11

The Akedah

by peacefulpete in

the genesis 22 episode, often referred to as the akedah (aqueda) ie "the binding" is a topic worthy a masterclass in textual and theological development.

a comprehensive discussion regarding this development would involve volumes and still leave much to be uncertain.

in short, the internal contradictions the narrative offers as it appears in genesis have inspired millennia of interpretive expansions and elaborations.

peacefulpete

I wish to clarify my comment earlier, the akedah itself isn't explicitly paralleled in the NT but it is implicitly. Perhaps the writer of Galatians 3 was confident through his identification/substitution of Christ with Isaac, that it would be understood to include the sacrifice scene. Later writers certainly got that connection.

A great book on this topic:

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity by Jon D. Levenson

12

Beroean Pickets - Is there a problem?

by BoogerMan in

jw
friends

having watched the latest offering from beroean pickets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpuelgtf4ka - i contributed the following factual information along with several consolidating scriptures:.

"naos - metaphorically the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in christ,

of a company of christians, a christian church, as dwelt in by the spirit of god.

peacefulpete

66

The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation

42

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

There are a few related thoughts that I wanted to append to Leolaia's excellent thread. She mentions the symbolism of the number 70 and association with divine judgment and how this allows for a less than chronologically accurate use by authors using the motif. To this point we see Isa 23 prophecy of 70 years of desolation followed by restoration of the non-Israelite Tyre (aka the lifespan of a King).

Also notable of course is the Babylonian Inscription of Esarhaddon:

"Seventy years, the reckoning of its destruction which He had inscribed, the merciful God Marduke, as soon as his heart had calmed down, reversed the order (of the sign) and ordered it's resettlement after eleven years."

The cuneiform text seeks to rationalize Babylon's destruction by Sennacherib as an act of punishment by Marduke but yet explains the early restoration of the city as an act of compassion on Marduke's part. It suggests the presence of a number motif of "70" in wider use in the ancient Near East.

"

Moving away from the numbers stuff, the apocalyptic chapters of Daniel's involve "visions' of a procession of empires/kings that rule the world. The writer of Daniel had inherited this motif as well, he/they may have even inherited the highly questionable idea of the Medes being the immediate predecessor to the Persian empire.

2013_Hdt. Median Logos_IrAnt_AZ.pdf

There is also the influence of the great Greek poet Hesiod . His work ' Works and Days' described human history as a decline of 4 ages, Gold, silver, bronze and iron. The same pattern in Dan 2. This motif of a succession of 4 world empires is found in other Jewish texts of the era, such as 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra and the 4 kingdoms texts from Qumran. There seems to have been importance to history being described as a pattern of 4 (different beasts, metals or trees) followed by the eternal kingship of God. Even when the Romans arrived to become the present empire, rather than change the motif of 4 kingdoms, they reinterpreted the past to retain the pattern of 4.
This may explain the beast motif in Rev.13:1-10 in which the Roman beast is clearly a conglomeration of all the beasts of Daniel rather than a 5th. A total of 7 heads and ten horns representing the sum of the power of the preceding empires. Daniel's beasts with their total of 7 heads and 10 horns are here merged into a single one representing Rome but at the same time all the previous. Another new concept is that the true source of the power (puppet master) of Rome was believed a spirit power, the ancient chaos dragon with matching number heads and horns called 'Satan'.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

Again I apologize for the tone. Thinking back, I'm guessing the other persona was your Catholic wife. As I remember she described you as 'autistic savant'. Perhaps that explains somethings. Either way, you obviously have much to share but be mindful that you may be asked to defend your comments, try not to mistake that for an attack on your Jewishness.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

It was a respectful request. One I was sure you'd honor given how polite constructive dialog is like 'eating dirt' for you. I have not given you reason for offense. You turned a polite disagreement into a personal and Semitic attack. You've used multiple IDs and feigned being a sexually assaulted woman before which throws much of what you say into question. With this persona you claimed in past posts to be a professional academic; all I ask is that you act like one here.

This is no longer enjoyable. I'm stepping away to learn from real academics who don't have chip on their shoulders.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

If you cannot offer helpful guidance or at least support your conclusions, then I respectfully request you not post on my threads or respond to my comments.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

Why do you feel I am anything but fascinated with the Jewish culture and history? How else am I to learn other than reading and discussing it? This is a discussion forum after all. If you see me making a factual error, then correct it using sources I can read and learn from. I do believe our coming from different perspectives is an opportunity for both of us. My own research for the past 25 years is likely to have included things you may not have encountered. I'm sorry if that sounds condescending because that is not where it is coming from.

I'll remind you of your wise comments about JWs not thinking for themselves or developing deeper perception. If I just take your word at things, how am I growing?

A last thought. If I disagree with you on a matter of history I am not disagreeing with all Jews. You have repeatedly emphasized there never was, nor is there, a consensus on many matters of interpretation and practice.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

It seems Antigonus is notable for a couple things, his Greek name betrays the extent of early Greek influence right around the time of Alexander and his choice to use "heaven' rather than "God" is regarded as a theology of transcendence. (The second translation above is a paraphrase, I noted the difference in the two translations and found a discussion that understood the word choice significant.)

The expression "Heaven" for "God" is the oldest evidence in postexilic Judaism of the development of the idea of a transcendental Deity.

The Jewish Spiritual Heroes, Volume I; The Creators of the Mishna, Antigonos of Socho 3 with Connections ANTIGONUS OF SOKO - JewishEncyclopedia.com

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

I apologize for my tone. I do not however understand your condescension.

Regarding the sole quotation from Antogonos of Socho, every other form I have found words the quote similar to this:

"Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of reward; rather, be like servants who do not serve their master for the sake of reward, and let the awe of Heaven be upon you" (Artscroll translation).

or

"Be not like slaves who serve their master for their daily rations; be like those who serve their master without regard to emoluments, and let the fear of God be with you."

How does this suggest he did not believe in prayers of invocation?