Posts by peacefulpete

7

Hole in the Wall

by peacefulpete in

a recurring motif is generally used by writers to connect stories and characters to the past or suggest parallels.

the gospels and acts are filled with them.

an example of this is found at acts, 2 cor, 1 sam and joshua.

AnonyMous....Many years ago I did some research on the claim of direct reuse of story elements from Euripides and other famed playwrights. I came to the slightly more nuanced conclusion that rather than conscious 'copying' it was more of a case of drawing from a milieu of imagery and idiom for the storyline. Your illustrating that with popular superhero fiction is a pretty good parallel. There is just no way to honestly overlook the emulation of Homer, Euripides or Ovid in the Luke/Acts narrative for example, but at the same time I found the Jewish writer Artapanus had similarly drawn from this literary body of work for his stories about a superhuman/divine Moses hundreds of years earlier. The miraculous prison escape scene for example:

"The king of the Egyptians learned of Moses' presence, summoned him and asked for what purpose he had come. He responded that the master of the universe had ordered him to release the Jews. When the king learned of this, he confined him in prison. But when night came, all the doors of the prison opened of themselves and some of the guards died, while others were relaxed by sleep and their weapons were broken." (On the Jews, fragment three).

The point being, the NT was not unique in drawing motif and idiom from the Greco-Roman literary world.

The 'letters' of Paul represent a complicated case of likely fragmentary material having come through at least 2 phases of expansion and redaction. Dating the material then gets very subjective. The usual model, that 'Paul's' version of his conversion (and escape through a window etc.) predates the Acts version, might be correct but then again, a number of well-respected scholars have reversed that order and suggest the differences reflect community recensions of inherited traditions rather than a conscious refutation/rewrite. (I'm inclined to describe it, regardless direction of influence, as a more direct revision because of inclusion of the otherwise irrelevant detail in both Acts and 2Cor. of the use of a "basket") That dates much of the finished 'authentic' Paulines to the 180s or so. That is a minority view but a scholarly one. The more we dig the less confident we are that anything reflects an historical core that we crave for reconstructions of Christian origins.

7

Hole in the Wall

by peacefulpete in

a recurring motif is generally used by writers to connect stories and characters to the past or suggest parallels.

the gospels and acts are filled with them.

an example of this is found at acts, 2 cor, 1 sam and joshua.

peacefulpete

I see too late that I wrote 1Cor rather than 2 Cor in my last comment. Sorry

7

Hole in the Wall

by peacefulpete in

a recurring motif is generally used by writers to connect stories and characters to the past or suggest parallels.

the gospels and acts are filled with them.

an example of this is found at acts, 2 cor, 1 sam and joshua.

peacefulpete

Actually Aretus did not have jurisdiction, despite many apologist efforts to suggest otherwise. Trying to place Aretus in the context of Acts makes no narrative sense either. Saul is a brand new convert but somehow a King of a neighboring land has such anger he plotted his capture. It just doesn't work in the Acts context. It opens questions about direction of influence between the finished Paulines and Acts. Some have suggested the Corinthians version was a revision of the Acts story. The enemy unsurprisingly is an 'archon' of the world in 1 Cor, and equally unsurprisingly the bad guys are 'the Jews' in Acts. Both are consistent with the overall themes in those books.

It certainly stands out as an addition to the list of traumatic near death experiences in 1 Cor., so it might represent a pretty late Paulinist effort to harmonize with Acts by someone with poor knowledge of first century politics. I'm sure the transmission/textural history is complicated however you look at it.

7

Hole in the Wall

by peacefulpete in

a recurring motif is generally used by writers to connect stories and characters to the past or suggest parallels.

the gospels and acts are filled with them.

an example of this is found at acts, 2 cor, 1 sam and joshua.

peacefulpete

A recurring motif is generally used by writers to connect stories and characters to the past or suggest parallels. The Gospels and Acts are filled with them. An example of this is found at Acts, 2 Cor, 1 Sam and Joshua.

In Joshua 2 the King of Jericho seeks the Jewish spies but is saved by Rahab:

3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house...15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”

In 1 Sam 19 The Saul the King of Israel seeks David but is saved by Micah his wife:

11 Saul (the King) sent men to David’s house to watch it and to kill him in the morning. But Michal, David’s wife, warned him, “If you don’t run for your life tonight, tomorrow you’ll be killed.” 12 So Michal let David down through a window, and he fled and escaped.

In 2 Cor 11 the Nabatean King Aretus seeks to kill Saul but is saved by unnamed others:

32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas the King was watching the city of the Damascenes, wishing to seize me, 33 and through a window in a rope basket I was let down, through the wall, and fled out of his hands.

In the Acts version/expansion of the story the enemy has shifted to "the Jews" and is saved by his followers:

23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

Clearly the stories are intertextually related .

As a side note, I thought the rest of the David story interesting, David and his wife have a life size 'idol' in their home to slip into the bed to look like David. ???

4

The Pella Deception: Watchtower May 2025

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/4otnshkqdbi?si=5ilzez_lxqscp1ww.

so, in the latest may 2025 study watchtower, the writers of this magazine, they have another go at revising church history for their own ends.

they take a well-documented historical event—the flight of christians from jerusalem before its destruction in 70 ad - and twisting it into a convenient narrative to reinforce blind obedience to organizational leadership.

peacefulpete

The writer of the Martyrdom of Isaiah seems to draw from this motif as well.

7. And, when Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw the lawlessness which was being perpetrated in Jerusalem and the worship of Satan and his wantonness, he withdrew from Jerusalem and settled in Bethlehem of Judah.

8. And there also there was much lawlessness, and withdrawing from Bethlehem he settled on a mountain in a desert place.

9. And Micaiah the prophet, and the aged Ananias, and Joel and Habakkuk, and his son Josab, and many of the faithful who believed in the ascension into heaven, withdrew and settled on the mountain.

10. They were all clothed with garments of hair, and they were all prophets. And they had nothing with them but were naked, and they all lamented with a great lamentation because of the going astray of Israel.

11. And these eat nothing save wild herbs which they gathered on the mountains, and having cooked them, they lived thereon together with Isaiah the prophet. And they spent two years of days on the mountains and hills.

4

The Pella Deception: Watchtower May 2025

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/4otnshkqdbi?si=5ilzez_lxqscp1ww.

so, in the latest may 2025 study watchtower, the writers of this magazine, they have another go at revising church history for their own ends.

they take a well-documented historical event—the flight of christians from jerusalem before its destruction in 70 ad - and twisting it into a convenient narrative to reinforce blind obedience to organizational leadership.

peacefulpete

There is no doubt the WT writers are making the most of this story. I have to believe many thoughtful readers will see the 4th century Eusebius quote describes a 'revelation', a divine vision, given to nameless 'approved men'. Whatever you make of the quote, this hardly fits the WT narrative. Or are they yet believing that personal revelations are occurring, and they alone are the recipients?

They also are 'quote mining' as Epiphanius about the same time credits the escape to an 'angel' delivering a message. That certainly does not fit the WT narrative. Anyone claiming to receive angelic messages or revelations today not only would be removed from the church they would be directed to a mental health clinic.

This has been a topic for a few threads lately. In short, the flight to Pella legend cannot be confirmed, nor can it be claimed to fulfill anything from the Gospels. The Marcan writer/redactor likely drew from recent history for the 'flee to mountains' motif. Famously:

1 Maccabees 2:

6 When he observed the sacrilegious acts that were being committed in Judah and Jerusalem, 7 [d]he said: “Alas! Why was I born to witness the ruin of my people and the ruin of the holy city, and to sit by idly while she has been delivered over to her enemies, and the sanctuary given into the hands of foreigners?....28 "Then he and his sons fled to the mountains and left all that they had in the town."

11

The Akedah

by peacefulpete in

the genesis 22 episode, often referred to as the akedah (aqueda) ie "the binding" is a topic worthy a masterclass in textual and theological development.

a comprehensive discussion regarding this development would involve volumes and still leave much to be uncertain.

in short, the internal contradictions the narrative offers as it appears in genesis have inspired millennia of interpretive expansions and elaborations.

peacefulpete

I wish to clarify my comment earlier, the akedah itself isn't explicitly paralleled in the NT but it is implicitly. Perhaps the writer of Galatians 3 was confident through his identification/substitution of Christ with Isaac, that it would be understood to include the sacrifice scene. Later writers certainly got that connection.

A great book on this topic:

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity by Jon D. Levenson

12

Beroean Pickets - Is there a problem?

by BoogerMan in

jw
friends

having watched the latest offering from beroean pickets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpuelgtf4ka - i contributed the following factual information along with several consolidating scriptures:.

"naos - metaphorically the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in christ,

of a company of christians, a christian church, as dwelt in by the spirit of god.

peacefulpete

66

The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation

42

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

There are a few related thoughts that I wanted to append to Leolaia's excellent thread. She mentions the symbolism of the number 70 and association with divine judgment and how this allows for a less than chronologically accurate use by authors using the motif. To this point we see Isa 23 prophecy of 70 years of desolation followed by restoration of the non-Israelite Tyre (aka the lifespan of a King).

Also notable of course is the Babylonian Inscription of Esarhaddon:

"Seventy years, the reckoning of its destruction which He had inscribed, the merciful God Marduke, as soon as his heart had calmed down, reversed the order (of the sign) and ordered it's resettlement after eleven years."

The cuneiform text seeks to rationalize Babylon's destruction by Sennacherib as an act of punishment by Marduke but yet explains the early restoration of the city as an act of compassion on Marduke's part. It suggests the presence of a number motif of "70" in wider use in the ancient Near East.

"

Moving away from the numbers stuff, the apocalyptic chapters of Daniel's involve "visions' of a procession of empires/kings that rule the world. The writer of Daniel had inherited this motif as well, he/they may have even inherited the highly questionable idea of the Medes being the immediate predecessor to the Persian empire.

2013_Hdt. Median Logos_IrAnt_AZ.pdf

There is also the influence of the great Greek poet Hesiod . His work ' Works and Days' described human history as a decline of 4 ages, Gold, silver, bronze and iron. The same pattern in Dan 2. This motif of a succession of 4 world empires is found in other Jewish texts of the era, such as 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra and the 4 kingdoms texts from Qumran. There seems to have been importance to history being described as a pattern of 4 (different beasts, metals or trees) followed by the eternal kingship of God. Even when the Romans arrived to become the present empire, rather than change the motif of 4 kingdoms, they reinterpreted the past to retain the pattern of 4.
This may explain the beast motif in Rev.13:1-10 in which the Roman beast is clearly a conglomeration of all the beasts of Daniel rather than a 5th. A total of 7 heads and ten horns representing the sum of the power of the preceding empires. Daniel's beasts with their total of 7 heads and 10 horns are here merged into a single one representing Rome but at the same time all the previous. Another new concept is that the true source of the power (puppet master) of Rome was believed a spirit power, the ancient chaos dragon with matching number heads and horns called 'Satan'.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

Again I apologize for the tone. Thinking back, I'm guessing the other persona was your Catholic wife. As I remember she described you as 'autistic savant'. Perhaps that explains somethings. Either way, you obviously have much to share but be mindful that you may be asked to defend your comments, try not to mistake that for an attack on your Jewishness.