Posts by KalebOutWest

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

Anony Mous,

You may be right. I was speaking in generalities, such as how Jews officially view certain groups.

I agree that Rutherford said some antisemitic statements. My aunt set me up to study with an elder who said nothing but horrible antisemitic statements, constantly.

Of course that elder who studied with me was a product of being raised in a Fundamentalist church that taught him since he was a boy that the Jews killed Jesus, etc., etc. He didn't think he needed to check some of his views at the door upon entering the Watchtower (and no one asked him upon become a JW if he had incorrect views about Jews). When he learned I was a Jew, this sort of disgusting speech from his "Free Spirit Chapel Bible Church" spilled forth from his mouth like vomit.

Rutherford and the Bible Students of his era published some horrible material not only about Jews but people who weren't white Americans. I am sure this too was also product more than critical theology. It was ignorance mixed with emotional response.

I am not making excuses for either Rutherford and his contemporaries or that elder who studied with me. Neither, however, puts the Jehovah's Witnesses as a group on the antisemitic list anymore than the fact that child molesters in their midst means everyone in that religion is involved in CSA. My aunt sure wasn't.

Now, regarding "the Chosen:" Even Orthodox Jews do not believe that because they were "chosen by God" that this means that Jews are anymore God's people than everyone else is. That is a JW misinterpretation of what Jews believe.

The Talmud explains that God views non-Jews as God's people just as much as the Jews. (Tractate Megillah 10b) The "chosen" in Chosen People refers to the duty to observe the Torah and serve as an example of what happens when one is in covenant with God as a result. It doesn't mean one has the one true religion or is in position of the only way to God.

Thus other religions and people are free to claim what they wish. It is not antisemitic to do so.

Some Black Hebrew Israelites have been called antisemitic and racist by the ADL. But not all of them are like this. I have spoken to some. But tread lightly. Since I am a Jew of color (Sephardic) they have been far more open to discussion with me perhaps than with others.

They have a unique combination of Christian and Jewish beliefs. They generally are not against all Ashkenazi (white) Jews as much as the fact that people in the West tend to think that all Jews are Ashkenazi. People tend to forget that many if not most Jews are of color if not quite diversified as to common stereotype. While I cannot say that I agree with all they believe, not all of them are the same when it comes to convictions.

Again in the end, I am not the final judge. Jews in general do not place Jehovah's Witnesses as a group on the antisemitic list as they are definitely not involved in hateful rhetoric against the Jews. Jews view the Bible Students who went to the camps as heroic. Your conclusions are your conclusions.

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

Blondie, that sounds so extraordinary! "Replace them with something good and positive and healing." I almost left that part out!

We can still be people of conviction and conscientious choice after leaving the Watchtower, just like you mention. It is one of the greatest lies of the Governing Body that outside of the realm of the JW world we will find a wasteland of hopelessness, emptiness and dispair, and come crawling back once we have "learned our lesson." Careful self-reflection is truly a powerful means to reverse that word you used in your post: "indoctrination."

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

That pretty much sums me up too - I find it much easier to think about what I don't believe for some reason.

I notice that tends to be the earmark of many exJWs. I think it's what the Watchtower experience does to members.

It is a constant indoctrination machine. I use to tell my family that I found the Witness experience "scholastic" as opposed to "spiritual." It was all "study from books," and "discuss" what you "underlined" and "listen" to "hours" of boring blather. There was no real worship or ritual or mystical experience. It was all so dry.

So when I left I kept measuring myself for a long while by what I read, studied, and could define...or as you put it what I "disagreed" with, so to speak.

But that is the system of Watchtower. It's a measuring stick, like a little inner bug checking in on whether we believe or not or what that consists of.

So outside it is quite normal to sense the disconnect. Instead of measuring what you are by what what you believe, the little bug measures you now by what you don't.

That eventually gives way to positives. It can take longer for some than others. But we all are made up of strong convictions that motivate us. They don't have to be theistic. You can be fine without a religious belief, but you will learn that you cannot and will not go through life being meaningless. Eventually you will be someone made up of what you do believe more than things that you don't again--it just doesn't have to ever include religious dogma.

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

Q: Are there some elements of JW culture shared with Jewish culture? For instance, is the elder arrangement and how brothers view "appointed men" in the org very similar to how Jews revere their leaders?

Judaism, as you are probably catching on, is more of a culture with religious elements than a religion. But it is not so easy to define (or dismiss) Watchtower religion as a culture in the same way because it is not a civilization. Judaism has four unique languages (two forms of Hebrew, Ladino, and Aramaic) and the JW religious community had no languages unique to its religion. Judaism and Israel are very much synonymous. Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a political country. We Jews have cultural dishes, create art, music, unique forms of dress, and of course celebrate holidays--something Jehovah's Witnesses are known to avoid like the plague.

On top of that, our members are related by DNA, not belief. We are a tribe of blood relatives. Jehovah's Witnesses call one another "brother" and "sister" but will disfellowship--sorry--remove a member who no longer simply believes or practices the doctrines (so much for being a "sister" or "brother"). You have to join the JW religion. Judaism, well, you don't have to practice the religion, but you are stuck a Jew whether you like it or not because that is what you were born.

As for Jehovah's Witnesses and their elder arrangement, and how does this compare with the rabbi among the Jews...

The word rabbi means "my teacher" or "my master," and the word "elder" comes from the Greek word presbuteros as used in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. The term is the Greek word for a Jewish a man who sat on a beit din. This was (and still is) a panel that precides over serious matters for a Jewish community as well as sits before an individual who is presenting themselves for conversion. This panel is usually made up of rabbis.

But that word "rabbi" does not mean "elder." It is more similar to the English term "my mentor" as in "not your mentor but my mentor." I learned two trades growing up, one of which required an old-fashioned type of apprenticeship program. You literally had to have a hands-on mentor teach you the trade or you could not learn how to do what you want to do. Each person learning got a specific mentor, but you had to be picked by someone and you had to earn your spot. If you did not get picked because you did not show that you had "the stuff" to enter the program, then too bad. Then once you got picked, that mentor taught you. Some mentors were just far better than others, and this meant some people would end up being far better at the trade than others in the end. You were proud of your mentor (and the mentor their student). You would say: "That is MY mentor."

That is what "rabbi" means. They are an institution for the Jewish community. They can be and generally are leaders. But they are often teachers and guides in life, passing on what it means to be Jewish, not just in the faith, to you and your community.

Generally speaking, nothing but the law of the land stops the average Jew from officiating at weddings, leading services, and performing any other rituals. So rabbis are not like elders in these matters. They do not necessarily take the lead in worship. Any Jew may do so.

Rabbis can however act more like leaders in some denominations as opposed to others and in Israel as opposed to in America. In Israel, Jews are basically divided into two groups: religious and secular, whereas in the United States Jews live in a spectrum of beliefs and practices. The rabbis in the US range from leaders to people who are equal with lay persons. Whereas in Israel the divide tends to make most of the rabbinate either part of the governmental arm or at least involved with the politics (though there are few representatives of denominations similar to what we have in the West), the US rabbis can often be viewed as leaders mainly because in the West people judge everything through Christian tropes or motifs (i.e., Christian priests, elders, pastors=leaders and thus Jewish rabbis must be leaders too).

There have been some problems with a few rabbinical leaders who have created movements that have developed into cult-like denominations in Judaism. Some of these leaders have been accused of wielding power and being abusive. Many of their stories have made the news and some have been recreated in film and television stories.

How much this is like (or unlike) the elder arrangment of the Jehovah's WItnesses, well, you will have to determine yourself. There are similarities and vast differences. There could be more I am sure or a far greater divide the more information I add. But the same could be said about any group of leaders, secular or religious. The Scout Leaders of the Boy Scouts of America are, for example, very similar to the priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church in their CSA history.

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

Ugot2bekiddingme1:

I am a member of Secular Humanistic Judaism.

While I was raised in Conservative Judaism before I lived among the Witnesses for that odd decade of Watchtower life, I returned via Reconstructionist Judaism--but their theology threw me for a loop (it's sort of an excuse for quasi-atheism from folks who do not wish to let go of "God" tropes).

I turned to Humanistic Judaism due to my love for critical studies. While theism and religious dogma take a back seat to rational thinking and ethical studies, it allows Jews to keep their culture and observe their holidays. So it is similar to what you describe except it is based in Jewish philosophy and considered an official denomination of Judaism, albeit a secular one.

Lots of parties, fun people. But we also meet regularly. We have rabbis, but they are Humanistic.

I think it's good to join something. Being a person that stands for nothing, has no community, believes in nothing (you don't have to believe in a deity--you can believe in a cause, for example), someone in a vacuum will only be meaningless. You can't make a life by merely making fun of others and tearing down where you came from forever. You have to have a reason to exist, to get up every morning. Otherwise why be here?

So it's good to join stuff, even if it's just for fun. Make life fun!

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

Q: Do you believe any of the posters on here are antisemitic?

Posting something that I point out as being academically unsound is not the same thing as being or proves that someone is antisemitic.

If I state that something is insulting, I might be saying it insults me personally. If I say something is antisemitic, it is because I have run it by enough people in the Jewish community (yes, if I think a post on here is questionable, I will in the future show it to rabbis and Jewish theologians for their opinion before I go there) and thus I will be speaking from more than my personal experience.

But I think people hear the "antisemitic" claim more than my literal use of the word.

Now even if someone might ever accidentally or purposefully get mad and say something very hurtful towards me or my community, and they have even here (yet I do not believe anyone here has ever knowingly or purposefully used an antisemitic slur), there is a real difference between emotions stirring and someone being antisemitic. I have only come face-to-face with an actual antisemitic individual once in my lifetime, and that was very different and frightening. It was some years ago before ever coming to this forum.

I do not believe anyone here on this forum is an antisemitic individual. Jehovah's Witnesses, even for all their gross faults due to their having gone through the Holocaust with the Jews are the least likely to be antisemitic. Not liking the Bible or anything to do with religion itself after leaving the Watchtower is not the same thing as antisemitism. Disagreement with me is not the same thing as antisemitism. Insulting Kaleb personally is not (necessarily) antisemitism.

There are a couple of people on this forum who actively disagree with me here. They are intelligent nonetheless, and it is their right. But their differences do not make them antisemitic. I would say differences of opinion are a sign of an enlightened conscience.

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

dropoffyourkeylee:

Thanks. I appreciate that.

LongHairGal:

I get that.

I too do not recognize the Watchtower these days. I've bumped into a few of my "friends" from the 1980s. Those who are still in the organization look like zombies...fat, poor, struggling zombies. But these people have either ballooned or look so tired or lost. We all age, but YIKES! No care for themselves since they believed they were "never going to grow old" in this "system of things." (I realize now how I never use that phrase in real life.)

25

My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower

by KalebOutWest in

i tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.. i know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

i think that is good.

you get to learn a lot about people that way.

KalebOutWest

I tend to keep my personal beliefs separate from my posts.

I know that is often different from others as their posts as often one and the same with their opinions.

I think that is good. You get to learn a lot about people that way. I tend not to do that because I don't think that my personal beliefs or opinions can help people. But I occasionally do state my personal view at times but only with a comment stating that I am doing so.

My only interest was to originally help discuss Watchtower subjects and those associated with the Bible from a critical perspective. I've been asked if I believe the following regarding Judaism since I was born to Jewish parents, so I thought I would give answers here:

Q: Do you believe that ancient Jews viewed the Biblical stories and characters as allegorical, like modern Jews do?

No. I don't. And not all modern Jews believe this either. Judaism is a culture or civilization and the individuals are subject to a spectrum of beliefs. In the past, more Jews took most of these stories as literal truth, but it depends on which story you have in. According to Jewish tradition and the Talmud some stories have always been seen as metaphor by many--but by no means all, like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, while Adam and Eve were believed to be historical. Today you have to ask individual Jews what they believe as it is not based merely on denominational differences. There has never been a complete consensus however. I don't have a personal view on what Jews believed in the past or believe today.

Q: Do you believe that Jews had various beliefs in the past?

It is scholars, rabbis and academics who teach Jewish pluralism. It has little to do with "beliefs" as with Christianity but more to do with Jewish practices (as in whether one keeps kosher or not). There has always been various ways and differences in Jewish practices which led to denominational splitting such as during the time of Jesus. This pluralism goes back further and stayed within Judaism to the point that it created the Reform Movement in the 1800s, the Conservative denomination in response to that, and on and on.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

Q: When did you leave the Watchtower? Do you try to preach or recruit still? Do you believe Jews are the chosen people?

June 1995.

I am not engaged in evangelism.

I don't believe that as a Jew that I am in a special covenant with God that makes me far more special than any other people on the planet or that I have the true religion.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

I didn't plan to continue seeing that your rule is to freely call me condescending whenever you wish but not find it being hypocritical when you act that way.

However this is NOT your forum. If you wish to post on it, any member abiding by the rules may post to your threads, whether you like their words or not, as long as they abide by the rules.

If you didn't like the way the Governing Body acted, why act just like them when someone speaks up and says something you don't agree with? Why not just return to worship them like the rest of the JWs if you are going to act exactly like them?

And that is my last comment on this thread.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete:

I do not however understand your condescension....
If you see me making a factual error, then correct it...
...I'm sorry if that sounds condescending because that is not where it is coming from.

So you can call me condescending when I correct you on Judaism, but you can ask me to correct you on Judaism whenever you want while accusing me of being condescending in the process?

I'm sorry, but no. I would rather eat dirt.