Posts by perspicacia2

34

has YOU KNOW finally gone?

by searchfothetruth in

jw
friends

i say with mixed feelings and fingers crossed, but i haven't read any of you knows totally stupid and un-thought provoking posts the last few days and i was wondering if he had finally realised what a total moron he sounds or whether simon has done the decent thing and blocked the idiot from posting...or is it just wishfull thinking on my part???

?

perspicacia2

Incense_and_Peppermints wrote: <<i don't know your story but it seems that you are alone in this cyberworld of ex-jw's and apostates>> He's not alone, and he will never be alone. Perspi.

18

Do Jws really enjoy being Jws?

by haujobbz in

jw
friends

i say this because half the witnesses i knew never seemed to be into answering at meetings,preaching the good news,being united with others.you see when i got baptised which was about 2 years ago i was really into answering at meetings,preaching etc and guess what people in the hall thought there was something wrong with me,they would say things like youll get used to it, you wont be happy much longer,this made confused because i thought these people were really into what they did with there hearts.i was obviously wrong,i then started to wonder does going to meetings,preaching,etc really show your a true christian you know serving god with a whole heart,all these organised rules didnt really matter i thought,you see if these people had do bible research,arrange the preaching themselves do you think they would do it.i now believe that serving god through organisations doesnt really make you closer to god i think serving god on your own really shows ones heart condition and how much you love god.

p.s.

im not a" jw no more" and still working out religion etc, i do swear and lie now though lol

perspicacia2

You wrote: <<That's OK if you like it that way, but you have no more answers than anyone else>> I never said that in this thread. I just wrote that who said <<I think the majority just go thru with it because they beleive thats the only way they will be saved>> is just trying to justify his spiritual failure. That's why he's ridicule. And about the apostate-idiot who wrote: <<perhaps you should be at the service meeting instead of here>> first he should ask in which country is the person who is posting to. Perspi

18

Do Jws really enjoy being Jws?

by haujobbz in

jw
friends

i say this because half the witnesses i knew never seemed to be into answering at meetings,preaching the good news,being united with others.you see when i got baptised which was about 2 years ago i was really into answering at meetings,preaching etc and guess what people in the hall thought there was something wrong with me,they would say things like youll get used to it, you wont be happy much longer,this made confused because i thought these people were really into what they did with there hearts.i was obviously wrong,i then started to wonder does going to meetings,preaching,etc really show your a true christian you know serving god with a whole heart,all these organised rules didnt really matter i thought,you see if these people had do bible research,arrange the preaching themselves do you think they would do it.i now believe that serving god through organisations doesnt really make you closer to god i think serving god on your own really shows ones heart condition and how much you love god.

p.s.

im not a" jw no more" and still working out religion etc, i do swear and lie now though lol

perspicacia2

That's why your out.

You are ridicules. You are only trying to justify your spiritual failure.

Perspi.

(Loyal JW - for ever)

14

To perspicacia2 - Continued

by ItsJustlittleoldme in

i appreciate you still wanting to converse on the new 'side' topic that we seem to have started from your original 607 thread.

so, continuing on, you stated please note that all the men are imperfect.

(rom.

perspicacia2

Hallo. YOU WROTE: Whoa! First, I take offense to your comment about 'right questions'.. I believe there is no such thing as a wrong question.. All questions are ok, are you stating that certain questions should never be asked?.... ...... I once again draw your attention to the original subject of this thread, that of the 607 date.. It was YOU that started us talking about an organization here on Earth.... ME: Im sorry but YOU are making a little bit of confusion. My original thread was: Why I do believe in 607 In that thread you wrote: Doesn't the bible state that everyone should make up their
own mind, test what is true for themselves, and hold on to
truth..?? By saying such a statement, are you not disregarding scripture?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 - but test everything; hold fast what is good (RSV)
So, does that mean that truth means less to you than loyalty
to an organization? ... I Answered: Hallo.
Please note that all the men are imperfect. (Rom. 5:12)
God knows that. Since the Churchs are composed by men...
all the Churches are imperfect. Even the Churchs of God.
But,once again, God knows that his Church is composed by
imperfect men. So, or you accept the imperfection inside
Church of God, or you will not believe that God has a Church.
But do not confound the imperfections with voluntary sins. I can understand your point of view.
Do you remember king Saul?
Note that i do not want to compare GB with Saul, it's just
an EXAMPLE.
He represented the human organization of God, in the past.
You know that he made a lot of mistakes.
He also tried to kill David. So could you please explain me
1 SAMUEL 26:11 ?
Was David loyal to the Visible Organization or was he loyal
to Jehovah? ***********************************************************
it is the attitude that makes the apostates.
*********************************************************** It's a pleasure for me to discuss with you, but this was not
the subject of the thread.
Please open a new thread, if you want to go on. So YOU opened a new thread called: ****To Perspicacia2 continued***** Wherein you wrote: Hi, I appreciate you still wanting to converse on the new 'side' topic that we seem to have started from your original 607 thread. So, continuing on, you stated Please note that all the men are imperfect. (Rom. 5:12)
God knows that. Since the Churchs are composed by men...
all the Churches are imperfect. Even the Churchs of God.
But,once again, God knows that his Church is composed by
imperfect men. So, or you accept the imperfection inside
Church of God, or you will not believe that God has a Church.
But do not confound the imperfections with voluntary sins. I have a couple of questions for this one: 1.) If god knows that all churches are run by imperfect men, why would god pick just one group of imperfect men above all others and state "These imperfect men are going to be my mouthpiece" whereas all the other imperfect men are tools of Satan? 2.) Is it possible that the 'church' Jehovah was talking about is not a physical entity, but rather the person? So instead of having a congregation of church goers that all belong to a single denomination (JW's, Catholics, Protestants etc) anyone who professes and believes in Christ Jesus and what he did for us belongs to a world-wide brotherhood of Christian? If, as the bible says, you should have a personal relationship with God through Jesus, why do we even need a man-made imperfect church in the middle of that relationship? 3.) Are you stating that the Roman Catholic Church, or any other church except the JW's are committing voluntary sin? How so? How do you know that it is just the imperfections of the men that misinterpreted what the bible states? So the subject of this new thread became THE ORGANIZED CHURCH. Please be more careful when you make statements YOU WROTE: All questions are ok, are you stating that certain questions should never be asked? ME: Im NOT. Im just stating what you can read in Ecclesiastes 3:1. YOU WROTE: I never accused you of saying that, I am stating that I heard (in person, with my own ears) on two seperate occasions in two seperate Kingdom halls from two different elders that very statement, that JW's are the only one's that have a realistic chance of making it through the big A.. I was merely asking you: A.) To explain that to me or B.) Tell me you do not share their views, in which case, explain how the WT can claim, and in fact, prides itself on the fact that everyone is in unity within the organization if you do not share the elders views. ME: I dont know what you mean when you write WT. I mean Watch Tower and the official postion of the Watch Tower is not the one you are stating. As you can read in its official website in FAQ section : Do you believe that you are the only ones who will be saved? No. Many millions who have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah's Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before God's time of judgment, and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. Humans look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. God has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours.Matthew 7:1-5; John 5:22, 27. As you can see in the last line.... God has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours. YOU WROTE: Again, I did not hear it from just one elder, but from two different elders, at two different times, in two different Kingdom halls. ME: I show you the official position of WT. I just can tell you what im trying to tell you since the beginning: we are not perfect. Maybe the two Elders made a mistake! Or maybe you have misinterpreted their words. I DO NOT KNOW, I WAS NOT THERE! YOU WROTE: In fact, can you show me just one example in the bible of where someone specifically selected by god to do his will (Jonah, Moses, Noah, etc) made a mistake that DIRECTLY resulted in poeple stumbling, and turning away from God's chosen person, and Jehovah himself? ME: Why ? Do you think that GB made mistakes that DIRECTLY resulted in people stumbling? I do not think so! And Im the living proof. Ive passed the NewLight of generation without any problem. I know a lot of JW that passed NewLight of 1975 without any problem. Ect.. Ect.. Are you sure that it is a GB problem and not a problem of the single person ? Anyway...... you can find the answer to your question in the biblical book of Numbers. Make some research on Korah and Moses. See WT 97 8/1. YOU WROTE: I'm sorry, what question(s) specifically do you want me to answer? ME: This story [Eunuc], on the contrary, support the idea that
we need a Organization. If not, why the Angel sent Philip to
explain the Bible? The Angel directly could explain the Bible
to the Eunuc. Moreover, why God did not let the Eunuc able to
understand the Bible by himself? Why the first Christians recognized to need an Organization,
as you confirmed ? YOU WROTE: Can you show me specifically in the bible where it states that an organization is needed for salvation? ME: Again ? God has a own people (Curch or Organization)
Act 15:14 Tit 2:14Hebr. 8:10 Rev 18:4 Haggai 2:7 Isa. 2:2
Hos. 2:23 Zech. 8:23 How many scriptures do you need to understand that God has a own people? YOU WROTE: if you have faith, your heart is naturally motivated to works... If you have faith, the 'work' will show thru without any problem ME: Not always. James 2:26 states:faith without worsks is dead. So it is not true that if you have faith the work will show thru without problem. James said that you can have faith but your faith could be dead. Thats why i said Jehovah will examine not only faith but also works. And works are not showed automatically only because you have faith (as per James statement). And try to guess who has to teach the right works ? see Mat. 24:45 . YOU WROTE: show me in that scripture where it states specifically that I must meet in an organized fashion ME: Act 14:23: Moreover, They appointed older men [elders] for them in each congregation..... YOU WROTE: Are you stating that people that do not meet regularily and talk about Christ and Jehovah will not be saved? So, for people around the world who have never heard of Christ of Jehovah, he will kill them in the big A simply because he never heard of them? ME: The only thing I can state is what you can read in << 2 Thessal. 1:8 >>. YOU WROTE: You have not shown me anything from the bible that states that I must be part of an Earth-bound religious organization... ME: I do not know why, but i have the sensation that this thread is going to be a long..really looooong conversation Take care. Perspi. PS Im going to leave for vacation. Ill be back around the end of August. Please send me an email when you will answer so i will not lose time. ( [email protected] )

1

to: ItsJustlittleoldme - from: loyal JW

by perspicacia2 in

you wrote:.

-- i've been to many kh meetings .

said and that i will never say.. you wrote:.

perspicacia2

Hallo.

YOU WROTE:
If Armageddon happened right now (This very instant), and I
am certainly not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact I have
signifigant questions as to the claim that the organization
is god's channel, do you REALISTICALLY believe that I will be
saved from Jehovah's wrath? -- I've been to MANY KH meetings
where the speaker is constantly re-enforcing that very premise,
that "JW's are the only one's with a realistic hope of making
it through the big A"..

ME:
I DON'T KNOW. I'M NO-ONE TO SAY THAT.
Please do not try to put in my mouth words that i never
said and that i will never say.

YOU WROTE:
So, if you answer differs from what
I've heard many times from the podium, I'd love to hear your
explanation.

ME:
I'm trying to explain it since the beginning : WE ARE NOT
PERFECT AND WE MAKE MISTAKE (EVEN BIG SOMETIMES..AS PER SAUL)
When we state that someone will not pass the big A, we always
consider him as component of a organization and not as single
individual.

YOU WROTE:
If they are not god's channel, and you
view everyone that has sworn allegience to the organization as
the only one's that have a 'realistic' chance of being saved,
how do you think Jehovah will judge you?

ME:
I never said that! I do not know the answer to your question!
Would you explain it to me ?
Maybe you know how Yhwh will judge me ?

YOU WROTE:
I made an observation based on about 10 experiences I've had
over the years, where all of the JW's claim to be in unity
with one another (In fact, they boast of that fact!), and
all of them use the exact same reasons over and over again
for different things. Your organization makes the claim that
anyone not of the organization is part of satan's world, and
has no realistic hope of being 'hidden' in the day of Jehovah's
anger. Please compare my observation to your view of the world,
and tell me who appears to be passing judgement on who?

ME:
I believe you, but i kindly ask you to indicate me the magazines
to check the whole articles.

YOU WROTE:
Show me one example where Moses caused
someone to stumble and feel that Moses was not acting under
God's authority.

ME:
Are you stating that Moses did not make any mistake during
the time he guided Israel through the desert ?

I WROTE:
This story [Eunuc], on the contrary, support the idea that
we need a Organization. If not, why the Angel sent Philip to
explain the Bible? The Angel directly could explain the Bible
to the Eunuc. Moreover, why God did not let the Eunuc able to
understand the Bible by himself?
Why the first Christians recognized to need an Organization,
as you confirmed ?

YOU WROTE:
Again, I do not believe that you need an organization or a church.

ME:
I understood what you believe and what you do not believe,
but we should try to understand what GOD believe !.
So please answer my above questions!

YOU WROTE:
The church/organization is used as a tool to help you foster a
personal relationship with god, it is not nessecary for salvation.

ME:
This your opinion not supported by the bible accounts.

YOU WROTE:
Are you in some way stating that Jehovah is going to look at
our 'record' and say that he never spent time in Church/Kingdom Hall,
and because of that he is not worthy of my love, and will not be
hidden in my day of anger?

ME:
I'm not talking about KH. When i talk about Church i mean a
Organization of God not the building.

YOU WROTE:
I believe the JW's (as do I) believe
that Jehovah looks at an individuals heart condition, and that
alone is how Jehovah judges.

ME:
I belive that Yhwh will not only looks at the indivuduals
heart condition but will examine also our WORKS coming from heart.
Mat. 7:21

To be judged in a positive way we must obey to his written word..
as Hebrews 10:25! How could you obey to this verse if you do
not believe in a organized Church ?
Who organize these meetings ? What are you talking about
in these meetings ? How can you talk of meetings if you
believe that the religion is a individual question ?

YOU WROTE:
So, by stating that you need an
organization, you are stating that people in parts of this
world who do not worship in an organized fashion have no
chance of being hidden on Jehovah's day of anger?
Is that what you are stating?

ME:
I never stated that!

YOU WROTE:
Are you similairily stating that people who
do not go to church/Kingdom halls on a regular basis will not
be hidden in the day of Jehovah's anger?

ME:
I'm not the Judge! I never stated that!

YOU WROTE:
Are you stating that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges on us belonging to a church/organization?

ME:
I'm stating that that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges to <<do his will>>! And to do His will, we
must obey to his written word, so we must attend the meetings,
we must preach His word, we must teach to others...to do all
these things is necessary a Organized Church and God knows that!

YOU WROTE:
Could it be, like I said
before, that the 'orgainization' of which you speak is the
'organization' of people from all nations in all parts of the
world who believe in Jesus, and what he did for us?

ME:
Are you serious ? Do you really think that !
Do you really think these organizations are the Church of God?
Where is the fruit of the Spirit ?
They make wars one against one! Only that should make us
understand that is impossible!
But what about the command to preach the Kingdom of God?
What kind of secular organization is doing that?
What kind of Organization belive that God and only God will
solve our problems?

see Jer. 10:23
see Dan. 2:44
see Mat. 6:33
see Rev.21:3-4

We must not close our eyes to the reality. God had a own
people in the past, and He has a people now.

see Jer. 8:23
see Isa. 2:2
see Hos. 2:23

Act 15:14
Tit 2:14
Hebr. 8:10
Rev 18:4

YOU WROTE:
What I've observed (i'm not passing judgement on them, just
making an observation) from the mjority of JW's that I know,
they seem to be motivated more by 'fear of god' and peer
pressure than by faith. Those are NOT motivating factors that
cultivate faith, those are motivatiing factors that cultivate
works.

ME:
I'm sorry but this is not my reality! The mjority of JW's
that I know seem to be motivated by love.

YOU WROTE:
For example, why is there such a push within the organization
to go out in field service?

ME:
Because it is a command of Jesus...see Mat. 28:19

YOU WROTE:
I've been to meetings where they
'encourage' all the brothers and sisters to go out in the
field ministry, and in fact, they even have defined hours
for various pioneer (aux, special, regular) levels. They then
follow that up with 'Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were out
in the door-to-door' ministry when the big A starts, or 'maybe
you can encourage some who are not active in the ministry work
any longer to re-join our efforts'.

ME:
What's wrong in that ??

YOU WROTE:
Those seem to me to be peer pressure and fear tactics. Can
you explain to me how they are not?

ME:
You stated that! Not me! So YOU have to explain how they
are not!
For me is everything clear! They just encourage to obey at
a command of Jesus.

YOU WROTE:
Oh, and would you explain James 2:25 to me? How can someone
be claimed Righteous if they practice sexual imorrality?

ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.

YOU WROTE:
Show me in the bible where you MUST be a member of a church
to be saved.

If you mean the actual people of God....:
Act 15:14
Tit 2:14
Hebr. 8:10
Rev 18:4

The first thing is to obey to the commands of Jesus.
And the first Christians understood that to do that, it was
necessary a Church. Take also note that they was guided by
the Holy Spirit. So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice. See Act 15:28

YOU WROTE:
Show me in those two above scriptues where it says that the
following REQUIREMENT was to form a church? -- It clearly
states what the REQUIREMENTS are, and I see no mention of a
church being REQUIRED there!!!!

ME:
In Act 15 everybody can check that the Holy Spirit guided
the first Christians in their choices.
So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice.

YOU WROTE:
Oh, and here is an interesting question, Are JW's allowed to
eat meat from that of strangled animals?

ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.

YOU WROTE:
If you are a missionary in a third world country, going
door-to-door may be your only alternative. But here (In the
USA anyway) there are many other avenues to get the word out.
And I believe that is what the bible is saying, get the word
out. When the bible was written there was no other way to get
the word out, now there are. Do you agree with me that going
door-to-door is to get the word out about the good news?

ME:
I agree with you that there is not only door-to-door.
We use phone,Internet,letters,e-mails,NewsGroups, ect..ect..
But YOU have NO ELEMENTS to say that door-to-door is a
figurative way to preach !
The Church of God has to preach ALSO door-to-door as stated by
Act 20:20.
Obviously we PREFER to go door-to-door beacause we prefer
to have a personal contact with the people.

YOU WROTE:
I'm not quite sure how you claim that the nation of Israel
was a visible organization of god, in the same way that you
are making claim to the JW organization. First, the entire
nation of Israel was brought into a covenant by god, no-one
certainly was required to get baptized into God's good graces,
and more importantly, during that time, Jehovah DID NOT USE
the 'organized' nation of Israel to do his work, he chose
individuals to do his work.

ME:
Not always single individuals. But groups of individials inside
Israel.
See Cheatiti, Merariti, Ferariti, (Leviti)!

YOU WROTE:
Now you are claiming to be in a covenant with god you must
'choose' to be one with god (unlike the nation of Israel)
and that god is using the organization to do his will
(again, different from when he picked Israel as his nation).
Exactly what similiarities exist between your organization
today and the nation of Israel?

ME:
The ancient Israel was not loyal to his commands.
So he promised what you can read in Haggai 2:7.

YOU WROTE:
I can be true to my conscience and still have the full support
of my friends and family, even if my conscience disagrees
with someone else's interpretation over matters. I'm not viewed
as spiritually weak, but as an individual that has a different
view/interpretation. JW's, on the other hand, seem to be
viewed as spiritually weak if they have different views,
and are told to be careful of association with people spiritually
weak, therefor, if a JW has a different conscientious
interpretation of something than that of the GB, their
relationships with friends and family may and due suffer
because of it. I am free to express my conscience, while the
JW's fear losing their friends and family if they express
theirs. Can you explain to me how this is freedom (The freedom
as expressed in the bible, never shall you be 'yoked' in the
slavery of the law again) , or have I misinterpreted what I've
heard at the KH meetings, and read in your literature? If I
have misinterpreted this, can you explain to me how it really works?

ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!

YOU WROTE:
Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him. Why is that covenant limited to only the JW's?

ME:
No, no, no! It is not complete!
<<Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him and MAKE HIS WILL and believe in HIS WORDS>>. Mt 7:21
Now sounds better.
So the covenant is limited to all the people that make his
will (included mt 28:19) and believe in his words (included mt 24:14).

I think we should understand first if God required an
Organized Church. Only after that, we could speak about the
identity of this Church.

YOU WROTE:
Ok, 1 question about this then. Do you believe that the 144,000
is a literal number, however the part in that scripture that
refers to the male/virgin/jew is figurative? Yes/No?

ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!

I ask you once more to forgive me for my late answers!

Bye
Perspicacia

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