As long as people believe that the world will end by means of divine intervention, then there will always be religions like the JWs even 1000 years from now.
deegee
JoinedPosts by deegee
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34
Thinking about the end of the Watchtower
by JeffT infirst, a word about the watchtower’s financial position: nobody (outside the watchtower organization) knows.
the wtbs is not required to disclose its finances, and doesn’t.
we can speculate, but that is all we are doing.
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deegee
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35
Either God’s non-existence or His majesty
by venus inin natural calamities, everyone (despite one’s faith) is affected.
when one denies god’s existence, he experiences no punishment from him.
when one worships him, he receives no special favor from him.
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deegee
Venus,
god is silent
- He does not speak to anyone
- He is not involved in the actions/lives of men
so how can we prove that he exists?
lessons are plenty in the universe
If we assume that God exists and that his nature can be determined from an observation of the natural world then what do animals who engage in necrophilia, murder, cannibalism and a myriad of other horrific acts tell us about God's nature?
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35
Either God’s non-existence or His majesty
by venus inin natural calamities, everyone (despite one’s faith) is affected.
when one denies god’s existence, he experiences no punishment from him.
when one worships him, he receives no special favor from him.
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deegee
@venus
@Confusedalot
I suppose an argument can be made that divine intervention violates human free will (yet the Bible is the story of Yahweh manipulating Jewish history).
A belief in free will is in direct opposition to a belief in divine intervention. It is impossible to believe in both free will and miracles at the same time as the two concepts are mutually exclusive. If God intervenes and changes a situation it invokes a necessary denial of free will somewhere along the line.
If God created us with free will because he wants us to make choices for ourselves, for him to then intervene, override a person’s free choice and change the course of their life by compelling a specific action or mental state would be a violation of his own plan.
And so perhaps God is justified in concealing himself from humans, he is just an observer of human behaviour.
But then, how can we know or how can we prove that God exists if God is not involved in the actions/lives of men and does not want to be Identified?
Has God ever told anyone that he created the world but prefers to be AWOL because he gave man free will to run things himself?
Has God himself ever told anyone this or is this what people have assumed?
I think it would be nice to hear what the situation is directly from God himself.
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28
What is sin?
by sinboi inwhat do you consider sinful?
okay, i know many of you no longer believe that there is a god.
just bear with me a little, just assumed that there is a creator or god.
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deegee
Sinboi,
Some more things to think about:
It can hardly be a coincidence that every religion which claims God has a chosen people was founded by those who claimed they were the chosen people.
Here is the likely reaction if God had really revealed his will regarding his chosen people to people other than his chosen:
Imagine Moses coming down fom the mountain following his first conversation with God:
MOSES: “O Israel, I have received the word of God, and the Chosen People have been revealed unto me!”
THE PEOPLE: “Tell us what God has decreed in His wisdom!”
MOSES : “Erm, well, actually…”
THE PEOPLE : “Go on…”
MOSES : ” …it’s the Philistines. I know, I know, but God is what He is, and He says the Philistines are his chosen people. What can you do?”
THE PEOPLE : “So what does this mean for us?”
MOSES : “Ah. Thought you’d ask that one. Since we are not God’s chosen, and in fact rank rather far down His divine scale, it means that we have to give all our land and possessions over to the Philistines, even unto our women, yea, even unto our goats, and we must devote our lives to the glory of God and His chosen people, basically by becoming their slaves through all eternity. So says the Lord.”
THE PEOPLE : “Sod that, we’re converting to Egyptian Polytheism! ”
The absurdity of this scenario is obvious and common sense alone would indicate that a religion based on such a message which was revealed by God to everyone, not just the chosen, will not get very far.
But that in itself is, of course, instructive on the nature of religion - if God does have a chosen people (as many believers do), why then would he himself never ever tell anybody else about it but they themselves?
Surely it would be to the advantage of his chosen if God made it plain to all other races, cultures etc just who the good guys were?
Yet this has never happened.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/the-unchosen-people/
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28
What is sin?
by sinboi inwhat do you consider sinful?
okay, i know many of you no longer believe that there is a god.
just bear with me a little, just assumed that there is a creator or god.
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deegee
Sinboi,
You have certainly been thinking critically and coming to your own conclusions. Wish I were like you when I was 16.
".....that yhwh is doing the same with the pagan believers. In his case, he needs to kill them..He cannot afford to let anyone influence the israelites"-------sinboi
Some things to think about:
Why didn't God also reveal himself to the Canaanites just as he did to Moses in the burning bush so that the massacre/genocide of the Canaanites could have been avoided?
God could have invited the native Palestinians into his covenant, given them the same laws he had given the Israelites, and established an egalitarian society where people of all races could live together in harmony.
Instead, he ordered his people to invade and slaughter the natives, killing them to the last man, woman and child, specifically instructing them to show no mercy to anyone under any circumstances.
What followed was a series of terrible, bloody battles in which tens of thousands of people died violently. Finally, God pronounced his campaign of genocide a success (Joshua 11:15).
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28
What is sin?
by sinboi inwhat do you consider sinful?
okay, i know many of you no longer believe that there is a god.
just bear with me a little, just assumed that there is a creator or god.
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deegee
Confusedalot,
I note your musings and the hard questions which you have been asking in this and other threads.
Some people choose to believe that God exists but that he is not interventionist. He just created the world then went AWOL (deism).
It is this lack of intervention, however, which has led others to believe that God does not exist at all. This is the case of Gretta Vosper a minister with the United Church of Canada who came out as atheist.
The following is an excerpt from her defense to the United Church of Canada regarding her atheist stance:
http://www.grettavosper.ca/tag/matthew-fox/
"........a being who presides over Earth from another realm, a supernatural one, from which it has the power to intervene in the natural world - capriciously or by design - by responding to our prayerful requests, or altering our minds and so, too, our actions, or intervening in the natural world with or without provocation or invitation in order to alter weather patterns, health, the accumulation or loss of wealth, the circumstances of birth including geography - a predictor of health and access to food and water - gender, sexuality, mental capacity, or beauty - all predictors of the power status and ease with which individuals will live their lives, then, no, I do not believe in that at all.
Neither do I believe in a god of no substance who exists beyond the universe yet contains it, interpenetrating it in some incomprehensible way for some incomprehensible purpose.
I see no evidence of such gods.
Were I to be given incontrovertible proof that a god does or gods do exist, the evidence of the cruel and capricious realities of disparity, tragedy, illness, and anguish in the world, and the truth that our world and our experience of it is wrapped not only in beauty but also in excruciating pain, would prevent me from worshipping it or pledging my allegiance to it, no matter the cost.
I DO NOT BELIEVE ......
.......in gods who can intervene in the natural world; therefore, I cannot believe that there is something we could define as a “call” from any god to us to direct us to act in any particular way."
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Education
by bola inafter waking up from the truth about the truth, i have decided to go to higher institution for further studies.
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deegee
University libraries are also a great place to do research.
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35
Either God’s non-existence or His majesty
by venus inin natural calamities, everyone (despite one’s faith) is affected.
when one denies god’s existence, he experiences no punishment from him.
when one worships him, he receives no special favor from him.
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deegee
Confusedalot,
How have you identified a God that is not involved in the actions/lives of men and does not want to be Identified? Are your abilities of discernment greater than his of concealment?------confusedalot
I like your musings and the hard questions which you have been asking. Some people just choose to believe that God exists but that he is not interventionist. He just created the world then went AWOL (deism).
However, it is this lack of intervention which has led others to believe that God does not exist at all. Take the case of Gretta Vosper a minister with the United Church of Canada who came out as atheist.
The following is an excerpt from her defense to the United Church of Canada:
http://www.grettavosper.ca/tag/matthew-fox/
"........a being who presides over Earth from another realm, a supernatural one, from which it has the power to intervene in the natural world – capriciously or by design – by responding to our prayerful requests, or altering our minds and so, too, our actions, or intervening in the natural world with or without provocation or invitation in order to alter weather patterns, health, the accumulation or loss of wealth, the circumstances of birth including geography - a predictor of health and access to food and water - gender, sexuality, mental capacity, or beauty - all predictors of the power status and ease with which individuals will live their lives, then, no, I do not believe in that at all.
Neither do I believe in a god of no substance who exists beyond the universe yet contains it, interpenetrating it in some incomprehensible way for some incomprehensible purpose.
I see no evidence of such gods.
Were I to be given incontrovertible proof that a god does or gods do exist, the evidence of the cruel and capricious realities of disparity, tragedy, illness, and anguish in the world, and the truth that our world and our experience of it is wrapped not only in beauty but also in excruciating pain, would prevent me from worshipping it or pledging my allegiance to it, no matter the cost.
I DO NOT BELIEVE ......
.......in gods who can intervene in the natural world; therefore, I cannot believe that there is something we could define as a “call” from any god to us to direct us to act in any particular way.
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The jw mindset
by Akid48 inwhen i woke up i got my critical thinking i lost it when i was five and now i have it at thirteen oh and how i missed it.. something i noticed is how with the hurricanes hitting yes do say "oh u feel bad for the people there".but i hear is "we know this is just a sign of the end.when i'm over thinking i wish i could help but nope it's just a sign of the end.
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deegee
When I woke up I got my critical thinking I lost it when I was five and now I have it at thirteen oh and how I missed it ----------Akid48
Good for ya!
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I Indirectly Helped Someone Join The Troof
by Nosferatu inhey all!
long time no see.. a couple of weeks ago, i got a phone call from my jw mother.
she said she had something interesting to tell me.... way back in 2002, i was moving out from my stupid roommate who was playing dumb jokes on me.
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deegee
It is said that religion satisfies psychological needs, so don't feel any responsibility for this person becoming a JW.
Cults, for example, satisfy the psychological need for idealism - the JWs believe that only God's kingdom can solve mankind's problems. Persons inclined towards idealism or persons who can't cope with conflict, dysfunction, difficulties etc find the idealism which the JW cult offers to be appealing.