Posts by Bobcat

8

Where there OS (earthly hopers) in the first century congregations?

by prologos in

jw
friends

caveat: wt writers are wrong with their 'other sheep' interpretation, (it's the gentiles), or the partaker count, but to show where these mistakes lead:.

they admit now that the os did not appear in 1935, when the ' sealing, anointing' was supposed have stopped, -- but did not.

when will the 'anointeds' sealing' stop?

Bobcat

Just to throw something into the mix -

Revelation chapter 7 seems to be an interlude, as it were, that answers two questions raised in chapter six:

(Revelation 6:9-11) 9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

(Revelation 6:15-17) . . .And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:1-8 answers the first question. Whether the number proves to be literal is open tio question. Either way, it has symbolism written all over it (12 apostles x 12 tribes x 1000). So, plausibly, it could be both. They show up again in Revelation 14 'standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion,' being called "firstfruits," and having a unique "song" ('story to tell'?) that no one else knows.

Also, the ones crying out for justice in 6:10 seem to have no sense of how far along the gathering of the "144,000" is. So WT's (or anyone elses) attempt to tabulate when these will be finally gathered would seem to be futile. (Which would also seperate the "144,000" idea from partaking at the Lord's Evening Meal. That was a plain command - "keep doing this." The gathering of the "144,000" would be basically unknowable. Unknowable as to whether the number was a symbolic and/or literal one. And unknowable as to when it was finished.

The great crowd of Revelation 7:9-17 is an answer to the second question - 'Who is able to stand during the day of wrath?'

(Revelation 7:13, 14) . . .And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

6

Need Scan from KIT 1985 version

by JWOP in

i'm looking to see what the 1985 version of the kit says at matthew 27:52-53. i'm looking for the word-for-word greek/english part.

i have a 1969 kit, so i just need to compare to see if there's been any changes between the two.

if you can send me a scan of it, pm me.

Bobcat

JWOP:

Here is thread that discussed this text if it helps any.

22

Do JWs use the Baptizmal formula?

by Hortenzie in

do the elders say: "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit" when they are immersing the one being baptized?.

Bobcat

Here's some links to info I posted about this before.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

Bobcat

and it is some kind of extraordinary declaration of "peace and security" that would be required by the prophecy at 1Thess 5:3.

Actually, the language used in 1 Thess 5:3 does not require some extraordinary future event. Nor does it require a "declaration" or a "cry" as the WT imagines. See this thread for an alternate view that is well in line with the original text.

22

US Dominance Fading Fast

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12.

dead last in math and falling in other categories.. zerohedge announced this morning that the chinese yuan just passed the euro in trade finance globally.

this puts it as #2, second only to the dollar.. metatron.

Bobcat

More on the Fed and manipulation of gold here.

10

Important scripture about the Faithful and Discreet Slave

by Crazyguy in

its been mentioned here before that the governing body almost never mentions the verses in luke about the faithful and discreet slave.

one reason is because the scriptures are more in detail but could this also be the real reason they don't mention these scriptures.. .

luke 12:41new international version (niv).

Bobcat

Jesus basicaly answered a question with a question.

Is that question ever answered?

See comments here.

And why doesn't the GB use Luke's account more than Matthew's?

Although I still find it quite confusing it makes more sense than Matthew's version.

I think you answered your own question. But see here (regarding Luke's fuller version of the parable) and here for additional links to different aspects of the parable.

16

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 02-02-2014 WT Study (GREAT SHEPHERDS)

by blondie in

jw
friends

http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com.

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com.

http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/.

Bobcat

The quote from the sheep manual in paragraph 1 can be found here (Sheep Farming in America, Joseph Elwyn Wing, p. 163). http://books.google.com/books?id=u0wMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA163&dq=%22man+who+simply+turns+the+flock+to+pasture+and+gives%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z8rtUv_iD6SgsQTF1oHIBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22man%20who%20simply%20turns%20the%20flock%20to%20pasture%20and%20gives%22&f=false

Interesting change in the rNWT at 1 Peter 5:2 (cited to read in Par. 4) compared with the old NWT:

(1 Peter 5:2 NWT) . . .Shepherd the flock of God in YOUR care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly. . .

(1 Peter 5:2 rNWT) . . .Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly. . .

"Serving as overseers" has better MSS support. References I have say that it is thought that it was taken out of Codexes Sinaiticus and Vaticanus because it was thought that "elders" (from 1 Pet 5:1; presbuteros; # 4245) and "overseers" (i.e. "bishops"; episkopeo; # 1983) from 5:2 were two seperate offices and that scribes 'corrected' the text by removing "serving as overseers." See additional translations here. Again (as I'm finding in other verses - like here and here), the change appears to reflect what most translations already had.

10

Important scripture about the Faithful and Discreet Slave

by Crazyguy in

its been mentioned here before that the governing body almost never mentions the verses in luke about the faithful and discreet slave.

one reason is because the scriptures are more in detail but could this also be the real reason they don't mention these scriptures.. .

luke 12:41new international version (niv).

Bobcat

CrazyGuy:

Although I very much agree with you that the F&DS story is a parable, I think what Peter is referring to what is said in Luke 12:35-40.

Incidentally, just as Luke 12:39-40 precedes the story of the F&DS in Luke, so Matthew 24:43, 44 precedes it in Matthew.

(Luke 12:39-40) . . .“But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. 40 YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”
(Matthew 24:43, 44) . . .But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

The F&DS parable naturally follows. In Luke it is the result of Peter's question of who this applies to. The Olivet Discourse in Matthew represents a re-telling of the passage by Jesus, so no need to repeat Peter's question that leads to the F&DS parable.

As to how the F&DS parable relates to the parable told before it, see here for some thoughts.

Take Care

13

This weeks book study and Bible Hi-lites

by bobld in

god can be our special friend.we can get to know him by his creative works and his word the bible.he provided a ransom(jesus) for sinners.a friend who cares about you,understands you and is loyal.. however,would you want god to be your friend after you read the bible hi-lites.a god who burns people with alive with fire and sulfur:gen19.

if your friend talked to you like this,abimelach,you are a dead man,for that woman you have taken is already married:gen 20.

(side note remember k.david).

Bobcat

determinin if Lor is tring to convince God that him going there is a minor issue, or if he is appealing to the size of the town

Here is the Hebrew (note the placement of "and [waw conjunctive in the Heb.] it is a little place/thing" - immediately after referring to the city but before the actual request) and here is a multilingual page on the verse (for any who can read any of the other languages). I haven't seen any, so far, that have taken it as referring to the 'size of the request.'

I thought that maybe the old NWT's stodgy literalness just sounds like it is referring to the size of the request. Technically, "It is a small thing," could be referring to the city. No reference I've seen so far takes it as referring to the request. So I was thinking that maybe I was just reading that thought into the phrase. But I wasn't. In the old NWT there is a reference column scripture after the first occurrance of the phrase, "it is a small thing." The reference is to 2 Kings 3:18 which reads in the old NWT:

"And this will indeed be a trivial thing in the eyes of Jehovah, and he will certainly give Mo′ab into YOUR hand."

Verse 21 (of Genesis 19) in the old NWT also gives the impression that it is the request that is small:

So he said to him: “Here I do show you consideration to this extent also, by my not overthrowing the city of which you have spoken.

But a footnote points out that "consideration to this extent" literally reads "consideration in this thing." So it appears (to me) that the rendering, "consideration to this extent," was a result of having already understand "it is a small thing" as referring to the request, not the city. Also note how the rNWT has completely changed this verse too:

So he [the angel] said to him: "Very well, I will also show you consideration by not overthrowing the town you speak of."

Incidentally, the Brenton translation of the LXX also has:

"Behold this city is near for me to escape thither, which is a small one, and there shall I be preserved, is it not little? and my soul shall live because of thee."

And here is Josephus' account of the episode (Ant 1.11.4, 5):

"Now he and his daughters fled to a certain small place, encompassed with the fire, and settled in it. It is to this day called Zoar, for that is the word which the Hebrews use for a small thing. There it was that they lived a miserable life, on account of his having no company, and his want of provision. But his daughters, thinking that all mankind were destroyed [evidently meaning 'outside of Zoar' - Bobcat], approached to their father, though taking care not to be perceived . . . [in order to get pregnant by him]" (This was curious to me because Josephus understood the destructive fire to be all around Zoar. And how Josephus understood the daughters' reasoning for getting pregnant by their father.)

Both Brenton and Josephus understanding it to be the city that was small.

******************

what would be the point of it being a small vs. a large place?

The NAC commentary mentioned above has this to say about that (p. 240):

His [Lot's] contention is that the angels can spare the little town for his sake, and they can still achieve their main objective. The reasoning reminds us again of Abraham before the Lord; justice, he contends, requires sparing the wicked for the sake of a few. Ironically, this is what occurs at Zoar; although a member of the wicked cities, the angels spare it because of Lot. Such allusions promote the prophetic image of Abraham.

As I mentioned above, the account has a number of verbal allusions back to Abraham's discussion about the fate of the towns in chapter 18. This forms part of the commentary's reasoning in the account with Lot in chapter 19. Unger's OT commentary is very similar with regard to this account.

At any rate, not to get hung up on this; "It is a small thing." But it is curious what you find when you start digging.

Take Care

13

This weeks book study and Bible Hi-lites

by bobld in

god can be our special friend.we can get to know him by his creative works and his word the bible.he provided a ransom(jesus) for sinners.a friend who cares about you,understands you and is loyal.. however,would you want god to be your friend after you read the bible hi-lites.a god who burns people with alive with fire and sulfur:gen19.

if your friend talked to you like this,abimelach,you are a dead man,for that woman you have taken is already married:gen 20.

(side note remember k.david).

Bobcat

Lot's request is a play on the name Zoar (so'ar) which means something like "insignificant." The NAC-Genesis commentary (Vol II, p. 247) points out that there are verbal links between Lot's discussion here and Abraham's discussion with the angel in chapter 18 where he bargains for Sodom if a few righteous men could be found in it. Per Abraham's 'bargaining' in chapter 18, little Zoar ends up getting spared for the sake of one 'righteous man,' Lot.