Bobcat

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Posts by Bobcat

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  54

  1914 - "A Turning Point In History"?

  by Bobcat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the february 2014 public wt has a cover series of articles dealing with world war i, and by inference 1914. the articles describe wwi as 'causing the world to be changed' and as "a turning point in history.".

  setting the wt's defective 1914 chronology aside for a minute, how do these statements about wwi coincide with the view of the nt?.

  certainly wwi was a big war.

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  Bobcat

  Designs:

  The beauty of the argument above is that it is the Bible itself that contradicts the '1914 turning point' idea.

  And I do hold to Paul's viewpoint, by the way.

  Take Care
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  54

  1914 - "A Turning Point In History"?

  by Bobcat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the february 2014 public wt has a cover series of articles dealing with world war i, and by inference 1914. the articles describe wwi as 'causing the world to be changed' and as "a turning point in history.".

  setting the wt's defective 1914 chronology aside for a minute, how do these statements about wwi coincide with the view of the nt?.

  certainly wwi was a big war.

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  Bobcat

  The February 2014 public WT has a cover series of articles dealing with World War I, and by inference 1914. The articles describe WWI as 'causing the world to be changed' and as "a turning point in history."

  Setting the WT's defective 1914 chronology aside for a minute, how do these statements about WWI coincide with the view of the NT?

  Certainly WWI was a big war. And it has affected peoples lives and the political structure of the earth since that time. But from the viewpoint of the NT, is WWI (and hence, 1914) "a turning point in history"?

  Consider this text:

  • (Acts 17:30, 31 NWT) . . .True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. 31 Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

  The setting is of Paul speaking to Athenians sometime in the middle of the first century A.D. Notice how Paul neatly breaks human history into three periods: (A) "The times of such ignorance" - the past, from Paul's viewpoint. (B) "Now," during which "[God] is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent" - the present, from Paul's viewpoint. And (C) "A day in which [God] purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness" - sometime in the future from Paul's viewpoint.

  Notice that period (B) represents a change from period (A). Thus, a "turning point" occurred. God held one position towards mankind during period (A), and then 'turned' to holding a different position during period (B). Paul indicates the change had already occurred (by saying "yet now"), so the "turning point" had to be sometime prior to when Paul was then speaking. By referring to the 'resurrection' of Jesus as the "guarantee" in all this, Paul makes it clear that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the major "turning point" that this change in God's view of mankind, and of what he expects of them is hinged upon.

  So where does WWI and 1914 fit into this depiction of human history?

  I've mentioned to several JWs (elders, ms, pioneers, others) that I have found a "turning point in history" far greater than WWI. Curiosity has caused everyone so far to ask. I simply show them Acts 17:30, 31 and ask them to identify the turning point based on what the verses say.

  What becomes apparent is how deeply indoctrinated JWs are with WT dogma. Everyone has had difficulty identifying the "turning point" referred to at the Acts 17:30, 31. And that despite the fact that Paul is expressing basic Christian doctrine to pagans, not to people versed in the Scriptures.

  Even more interesting is the fact that once they do begin to grasp the significance of Acts 17:30, 31, it begins to become apparent that WWI and 1914 are no "turning point" at all, but simply a continuation of the (B) period described above.

  I've been having some fun so far with this, always letting them come to the conclusions, with a little nudging to help them over their cognitive difficulties.

  Incidentally, for additional reference concerning when Jesus began to rule (and whether it happened in 1914):

  • Compare here (various verses concerning when Jesus began his rule), and here ( for how parousia or "presense" is spoken of in relation to Jesus), here (regarding the phrase "The Kingdom of God/Heaven has drawn near"), and here (regarding Ps 2:7 and its application to Jesus).

  Take Care
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  13

  This weeks book study and Bible Hi-lites

  by bobld in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  god can be our special friend.we can get to know him by his creative works and his word the bible.he provided a ransom(jesus) for sinners.a friend who cares about you,understands you and is loyal.. however,would you want god to be your friend after you read the bible hi-lites.a god who burns people with alive with fire and sulfur:gen19.

  if your friend talked to you like this,abimelach,you are a dead man,for that woman you have taken is already married:gen 20.

  (side note remember k.david).

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  Bobcat

  Interesting comparison with this weeks Bible Highlights (2/2/14 - Genesis chapters 21-24)

  • (Genesis 22:18) . . .And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.. . .

  This is an echo or repeat of the promise made in Genesis 12:3 and 18:18 -

  • (Genesis 12:3) . . .And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you.”

  • (Genesis 18:18) . . .Abraham is surely going to become a nation great and mighty, and all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him.

  The WT's position on this is that:

  • Jesus is the primary seed of Abraham
  • The 144,000 (only anointed ones) are the secondary seed of Abraham
  • The "nations of the earth"/"families of the ground" represent everyone else who will eventually benefit from Abraham's seed, although not being of that seed or being anointed Christians

  The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, viewed it quite differently:

  • (Galatians 3:7-9) . . .Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham. 8 Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 Consequently those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with faithful Abraham.

  Paul understood that "those who adhere to faith" were "sons of Abraham" (Abraham's seed via their faith in Jesus, in the same way that Jacob was Abraham's seed via his relationship with Isaac - Galatians 3:16) Then Paul quotes from the promise in Genesis about 'the nations being blessed' to support the idea that Gentiles ("the nations") would become Abraham's seed by having faith in Jesus. And Paul indicates that it was already happening: "are being blessed." Paul also pointed out that these same "nations" that were being blessed to become "Abraham's seed" were also the ones receiving "the promised spirit":

  • (Galatians 3:14) . . .The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.

  I commented on this during the highlights without mentioning that it contradicted WT theology but nary an eye was batted.
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  8

  Where there OS (earthly hopers) in the first century congregations?

  by prologos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  caveat: wt writers are wrong with their 'other sheep' interpretation, (it's the gentiles), or the partaker count, but to show where these mistakes lead:.

  they admit now that the os did not appear in 1935, when the ' sealing, anointing' was supposed have stopped, -- but did not.

  when will the 'anointeds' sealing' stop?

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  Bobcat

  Just to throw something into the mix -

  Revelation chapter 7 seems to be an interlude, as it were, that answers two questions raised in chapter six:

  • (Revelation 6:9-11) 9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

  • (Revelation 6:15-17) . . .And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

  Revelation 7:1-8 answers the first question. Whether the number proves to be literal is open tio question. Either way, it has symbolism written all over it (12 apostles x 12 tribes x 1000). So, plausibly, it could be both. They show up again in Revelation 14 'standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion,' being called "firstfruits," and having a unique "song" ('story to tell'?) that no one else knows.

  Also, the ones crying out for justice in 6:10 seem to have no sense of how far along the gathering of the "144,000" is. So WT's (or anyone elses) attempt to tabulate when these will be finally gathered would seem to be futile. (Which would also seperate the "144,000" idea from partaking at the Lord's Evening Meal. That was a plain command - "keep doing this." The gathering of the "144,000" would be basically unknowable. Unknowable as to whether the number was a symbolic and/or literal one. And unknowable as to when it was finished.

  The great crowd of Revelation 7:9-17 is an answer to the second question - 'Who is able to stand during the day of wrath?'

  • (Revelation 7:13, 14) . . .And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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  6

  Need Scan from KIT 1985 version

  by JWOP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm looking to see what the 1985 version of the kit says at matthew 27:52-53. i'm looking for the word-for-word greek/english part.

  i have a 1969 kit, so i just need to compare to see if there's been any changes between the two.

  if you can send me a scan of it, pm me.

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  Bobcat

  JWOP:

  Here is thread that discussed this text if it helps any.
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  22

  Do JWs use the Baptizmal formula?

  by Hortenzie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do the elders say: "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit" when they are immersing the one being baptized?.

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  Bobcat

  Here's some links to info I posted about this before.
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  26

  Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

  by scotoma in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

  and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

  ceremony is festive .

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  Bobcat

  and it is some kind of extraordinary declaration of "peace and security" that would be required by the prophecy at 1Thess 5:3.

  Actually, the language used in 1 Thess 5:3 does not require some extraordinary future event. Nor does it require a "declaration" or a "cry" as the WT imagines. See this thread for an alternate view that is well in line with the original text.
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  22

  US Dominance Fading Fast

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12.

  dead last in math and falling in other categories.. zerohedge announced this morning that the chinese yuan just passed the euro in trade finance globally.

  this puts it as #2, second only to the dollar.. metatron.

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  Bobcat

  More on the Fed and manipulation of gold here.
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  10

  Important scripture about the Faithful and Discreet Slave

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  its been mentioned here before that the governing body almost never mentions the verses in luke about the faithful and discreet slave.

  one reason is because the scriptures are more in detail but could this also be the real reason they don't mention these scriptures.. .

  luke 12:41new international version (niv).

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  Bobcat

  Jesus basicaly answered a question with a question.

  Is that question ever answered?

  See comments here.

  And why doesn't the GB use Luke's account more than Matthew's?

  Although I still find it quite confusing it makes more sense than Matthew's version.

  I think you answered your own question. But see here (regarding Luke's fuller version of the parable) and here for additional links to different aspects of the parable.
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  16

  Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 02-02-2014 WT Study (GREAT SHEPHERDS)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com.

  http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com.

  http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/.

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  Bobcat

  The quote from the sheep manual in paragraph 1 can be found here (Sheep Farming in America, Joseph Elwyn Wing, p. 163). http://books.google.com/books?id=u0wMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA163&dq=%22man+who+simply+turns+the+flock+to+pasture+and+gives%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z8rtUv_iD6SgsQTF1oHIBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22man%20who%20simply%20turns%20the%20flock%20to%20pasture%20and%20gives%22&f=false

  Interesting change in the rNWT at 1 Peter 5:2 (cited to read in Par. 4) compared with the old NWT:

  • (1 Peter 5:2 NWT) . . .Shepherd the flock of God in YOUR care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly. . .

  • (1 Peter 5:2 rNWT) . . .Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly. . .

  "Serving as overseers" has better MSS support. References I have say that it is thought that it was taken out of Codexes Sinaiticus and Vaticanus because it was thought that "elders" (from 1 Pet 5:1; presbuteros; # 4245) and "overseers" (i.e. "bishops"; episkopeo; # 1983) from 5:2 were two seperate offices and that scribes 'corrected' the text by removing "serving as overseers." See additional translations here. Again (as I'm finding in other verses - like here and here), the change appears to reflect what most translations already had.