Thank you, for all your responses.
As time goes by, the more ridiculous the JW belief system is to me.
Hopefully, with posts we all share together, others will see "truth" for what it is.
Ashitika I think I'll get pissed now also.
Radar
Posts by radar
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10A WalkThrough The garden Final!!!
by radar inthere is a kingdom song entitled: .
"make the truth your own", i began to ask myself:, which one?.
the impetus behind watchtower admonition to give all your time and effort to the kingdom, is that the end is near, "why paint a sinking ship", was an illustration often spoken and re-iterated through the pages of the watchtower.
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radar
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12
Bible Fraud
by radar inhere is an extract from the book: the bible fraud, by tony bushby.. some may find this a revelation!.
just who were the parents of jesus christ?
in the opening sentence of a new testament parable, jesus stated:.
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radar
Here is an extract from the book: The Bible fraud, by Tony Bushby.
Some may find this a revelation!
JUST WHO WERE THE PARENTS OF JESUS CHRIST?
In the opening sentence of a New Testament parable, Jesus stated:
A man of noble birth was on a long journey abroad, to have himself appointed king, and return. (Luke 19:12)Herein lies part of a profound Gospel truth revealing the substance of historical information that the Church has strived for 2,000 years to conceal. This tale of long-ago misconceptions and mistaken identities must be clarified so that the original story may be seen to rest upon a true and sure foundation. For this purpose, we begin with the examination of Church writings purporting to record the birth of Jesus Christ.
The Gospels of Matthew and Luke state that Jesus Christ was the first-born of Mary and Joseph and that he had four younger brothers and at least two sisters (Mark 6:3). Roman Catholics are obliged to hold the opinion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ were the children of Joseph by a former marriage. This conclusion originally stemmed from the Gospel of James (the Protevanglium) which refers to the age of Joseph at the birth of Jesus. However, it is clearly recorded that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus. The statement in the Gospel of Matthew that Joseph "knew her not until she had born a son" (Matt. 1:25) eliminated the Church's claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin. From the statements in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, it is clear that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were subsequent children of Mary in the fullest sense.
Joseph returned to Galilee with the intention of marrying Mary. The Gospels according to Matthew and Luke clearly explain that they were "betrothed" before Joseph's departure. This was the equivalent of being "engaged" in modern-day terminology. However, upon his return some months later, it was plainly apparent that Mary "was with child" (Luke 2:5) and it "could not be hid from Joseph". The Gospel of Matthew elaborated extensively upon the feelings of Joseph when he saw the violated condition of his bride-to-be. He was uneasy, and being unwilling to defame her he privately discussed ending their engagement (Matt. 1:19). From the description in the Gospels, it is clear that Joseph was not the biological father of Mary's child. So, who was?
The Evidence of the Rabbis
The Jewish records of the Rabbis are of extreme importance in determining Gospel origins and the value of the Church presentation of the virgin birth story of Jesus Christ. A common appellation for Jesus in the Talmud is Yeshu'a ben Panthera, an allusion to the widespread Jewish belief during the earliest centuries of the Christian era that Jesus was the result of an illegitimate union between his mother and a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera.
The Talmud enshrines within its pages Jewish oral law. It is divided into two parts, the Mishna and the Gemara. The first discusses such subjects as festivals and sacred things. The Gemara is basically a commentary on these subjects. When the Talmud was written is not known. Some authorities suggest a date of 150-160, around the same time the Christian Gospels began to emerge, while others say 450.
The Talmud writers mention Jesus' name 20 times and quite specifically documents that he was born an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, nicknamed "the Panther". Panthera's existence was confirmed by the discovery of a mysterious tombstone at Bingerbrück in Germany. The engraving etched in the headstone reads:
Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9 AD was transferred to service in Rhineland [Germany].10This inscription adds fuel to the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier Panthera. Classical scholar Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University, USA, describes the tombstone as possibly "our only genuine relic of the holy family".11 In many Jewish references, Jesus is often referred to as "ben Panthera", ben meaning "son of". However cautious one ought to be in accepting anything about Jesus from Jewish sources, in the matter of Jesus ben Panthera the writers seem more consistent than the men we now call the Church fathers.
Scholars over the centuries have discussed at length why Jesus was so regularly called ben Panthera. Adamantius Origen, an early Christian historian and Church father (185-251), recorded the following verses about Mary from the research records of a highly regarded second-century historian and author named Celsus (c. 178):
Mary was turned out by her husband, a carpenter by profession, after she had been convicted of unfaithfulness. Cut off by her spouse, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard; that Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt; that while there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing.12Later, in passage 1:32, Origen supports the Jewish records and confirms that the paramour of the mother of Jesus was a Roman soldier called Panthera, a name he repeats in verse 1:69. Some time during the 17th century, those sentences were erased from the oldest Vatican manuscripts and other codices under Church control.13
The traditional Church writings of St Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis (315-403), again confirm the ben Panthera story, and his information is of a startling nature. This champion of Christian orthodoxy and saint of Roman Catholicism states:
Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera.14This is an extraordinary declaration, simply recorded in ancient records as accepted Church history. The ben Panthera legend was so widespread that two early stalwarts of the Christian Church inserted the name in the genealogies of Jesus and Mary as a matter of fact. Enlarging on that statement, this passage from the Talmud:
Rabbi Shiemon ben Azzai has said: I found in Jerusalem a book of genealogies; therein was written that Such-an-one [Jesus] is the bastard son of an adulteress.15"Such-an-one" was one of the well-known substitutes for Jesus in the Talmud, as has been proved and admitted on either side. Shiemon ben Azzai flourished at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. He was one of four famous Rabbis who, according to Talmudic tradition, "entered Paradise". He was a Chassid (the pious Jews of Palestine), most probably an Essene, and remained a celibate and rigid ascetic until his death.
The story of Mary's pregnancy by a Roman soldier also appears in the sacred book of the Moslems, the Koran. It states that "a full-grown man" forced his attentions on Mary, and in her fear of the disgrace that would follow she left the area and bore Jesus in secret. This story was supported in the Gospel of Luke, with the description of the departure of Joseph and Mary from their home prior to the birth. Rape was a common event in Palestine during the Roman occupation, and soldiers were notorious for their treatment of young women. It would be unthinkable for Mary to admit such an event had occurred, for under the Law of Moses a betrothed virgin who had sex with any man during the period of her betrothal was to be stoned to death by the men of the city (Deut. 22:21). Simply put, Mary faced the death penalty unless she could prove her innocence.
Radar
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10
A WalkThrough The garden Final!!!
by radar inthere is a kingdom song entitled: .
"make the truth your own", i began to ask myself:, which one?.
the impetus behind watchtower admonition to give all your time and effort to the kingdom, is that the end is near, "why paint a sinking ship", was an illustration often spoken and re-iterated through the pages of the watchtower.
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radar
Tweety Bird
I often felt the "lowly publishers" were the more mature ones
Radar
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10
A WalkThrough The garden Final!!!
by radar inthere is a kingdom song entitled: .
"make the truth your own", i began to ask myself:, which one?.
the impetus behind watchtower admonition to give all your time and effort to the kingdom, is that the end is near, "why paint a sinking ship", was an illustration often spoken and re-iterated through the pages of the watchtower.
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radar
There is a Kingdom Song entitled: ."Make the Truth Your Own", I began to ask myself:, which one?
The impetus behind Watchtower admonition to give all your time and effort to the Kingdom, is that The End is near, "Why paint a sinking ship", was an illustration often spoken and re-iterated through the pages of the watchtower. This basis for claiming "The End is near" rested on a "Time calculation of 1914.
Hypocritically, in 1995 a watchtower was published declaring that people should avoid building their lives around Time calculations.
It reads as follows:*** w95 11/1 17 A Time to Keep Awake ***
Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the "great tribulation" would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we "count our days" in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term "generation" as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.Its interesting that until then, we as Jehovah’s Witnesses had been preaching "This Generation that saw the events of 1914", would live to see Armageddon. This is the message that we took to people's doors. Open any Awake up till 1995 and read the inside cover, its quite clear. Since then of course it's wording as changed.
When I first read the article I remember feeling annoyed because the Watchtower suggested that its readers were reading too much into Time calculations, it was somehow our fault if we were disappointed. I felt as if my trust had been betrayed, having spoken so assuredly to so many people about "This Generation".
I was reflecting on this during my stay off work, now if the Generation interpretation was in error, then what about 1914, after all this also was a time prophecy, how confident can we be on interpretations like this? I began to search. The watchtower admits that the 1914 date originally was arrived at in error (they forgot to allow for the zero year). The more I studied these things, the more I wanted to know. Things that I long held as truth were now in question, this was at first disturbing. Truth should not be something to hide from; it should win through any test. A person should not fear examination of truth.
The change in the "Generation" understanding was very significant for me. As time went on I needed to know more of the origins of this Organization and to look more deeply at its doctrines from a more objective viewpoint, not just the Watchtower’s view, yet it was not till January 1999 that I really began to search these questions over the Internet. This type of search is viewed as a kind of rebellion by Jehovah's Witnesses, it is to think the unthinkable, that maybe our present understanding of the Bible is wrong.
Expressions like "The Time is at Hand and The due time as approached" the Watchtower as published for the past 100yrs in their literature, for example: May 1st Watchtower 1999. On page 24, paragraph 20 it concludes by saying We can confidently say, The presence of the Lord is here, and its climax is at hand.
Yet. Luke 21:8. Matthew 24:23 reads:..: Then if anyone says to you, look! here is the Christ, or there, do not go after them. Clearly I needed to do some thinking.The circumstances in which I found myself in with my family and the pressure for caring for all that was expected of me as an elder, my increasing unease with the structure of worship within the Congregations caused me to step down from my appointment as an elder.
There is a very strong emotional bonding to the mother organization that is conditioned into every Jehovah’s Witness. loyalty to it is reinforced over and over, if any deviate away, they are viewed as disloyal, weak in faith, not good to associate with. My wife had noticed that some had began avoiding her. It came to our ears that stories were going around that I was some sort of an Apostate. Unfortunately most see loyalty to the Organization as the same as loyalty to Christ, even though it is said "one is your leader Christ". Yet if you miss meetings and raise a few questions you are viewed as disloyal to the Organization and to most Jehovah's Witnesses, this is the same as loyalty to Christ.
My family had been associating with the congregation for 18yrs. Our home had been used for meetings and Field Service over much of that time. we had entertained and helped several into the Organization. Despite all of this, some could apparently switch of their affection like an electric light switch. Those years we spent side by side did not seem to matter. Occasionally one would say: "we miss you at the meetings" It seems though, that attendance at these meetings was the measuring rod by which to show affection.
If there is one doctrine that people identify with Jehovah's Witnesses, it is their teaching on blood and their refusal of blood transfusions. This doctrine is an intrinsic part of their faith. It was a doctrine I sincerely believed in, and was willing to die for.
This doctrine raises people's temperatures, like no other Bible subject when discussed on the ministry. It is a subject that I and many who I worked with, in the ministry, would try to avoid, because of the emotional and adverse reaction that often followed.
Never would I have dreamt, that one day I would be arguing the fact, that the Watchtower's blood policy is very wrong. This blood issue, is what finally led me, to being dissfellowshiped from Jehovah's Witnesses.A judicial committee was set up, the charge? Apostasy. I agreed to attend the meeting in the hope of making them think about this doctrine differently, and perhaps strike a cord in their hearts. I never expected them to agree with me on the subject, it would have put them in the same position as myself. I had four meetings.
There were many points that I brought to their attention, the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses don't actually Abstain from blood anyway, they accept many blood components. The fact that serums (with blood components in) became acceptable to the Watchtower, on the basis that it was not feeding on blood, and they are now acknowledging that a blood transfusion is essentially an Organ tissue transplant, (is this feeding on blood?) I think not. So on what basis is there for now refusing blood? Is a little bit of blood ok? does this make a little bit of fornication ok also?
At the end of the final meeting, they informed me that I was dissfellowshiped.The irony of it all is, the Watchtower could change its position regarding blood, as it's done in the past and these same brothers would then have to argue in favour of the New policy. Truth, then is not the issue in these cases or loyalty to Christ or ones own conscience, but loyalty to Organizational directives.
I close my story here,
Radar
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15
Will we ever find the magic bullet.
by sleepy inlets just face it humans are odd.. nearly all here are proof of it.. we were able at one time to believe so fully in an idea that we gave our lives to it , and now we dont.. although this subject has been discussed many times before it is something that frustrates me , big time.. well we all at one time thought we knew it all.
the meaning of life the real history of human kind why we die why there is suffering and many more of lifes mysteries were plain and simple to us.. gradually came the realisation that things were not as we had thought.. what was once so obvious was now so obviously wrong.. so how do humans manage to believe fervently on issues that to others make no sense?.
is there a magic explanation or piece of logic that can convince any witness with a functioning mind the error of their beliefs?.
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radar
anewperson
What are you on about?
What presumes you to think this: " Just because you haven't helped some quit the WTS"?
For a person to wonder around the internet and listen to information about the watchtower, first his perpective of his world will have already shifted slightly, the loyal witness would not entertain such "Viewing".
Sure, as more information passes around, more people will take notice, but sleepy was talking about a magic bullet, just one shot that will change a person thinking instantly.
Radar
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15
Will we ever find the magic bullet.
by sleepy inlets just face it humans are odd.. nearly all here are proof of it.. we were able at one time to believe so fully in an idea that we gave our lives to it , and now we dont.. although this subject has been discussed many times before it is something that frustrates me , big time.. well we all at one time thought we knew it all.
the meaning of life the real history of human kind why we die why there is suffering and many more of lifes mysteries were plain and simple to us.. gradually came the realisation that things were not as we had thought.. what was once so obvious was now so obviously wrong.. so how do humans manage to believe fervently on issues that to others make no sense?.
is there a magic explanation or piece of logic that can convince any witness with a functioning mind the error of their beliefs?.
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radar
Sleepy
Interesting observation.
There are some really intelligent people on this planet believing in really stupid things.
The determining factor with upturning strongly entrenched ideas is not always therefore with the use of intelligent logic.
(God I am begining to sound like a Dub again, I will be saying Jehovah needs to touch their heart next)It is how a person relates to the universe about him, that will determine his outlook and his thinking processes.
Why do many people become Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place?
Nice easy way of life? no, its because the vision of the world falls into the universe they wish to experience(paradise)only a little bit of logic then is needed to make the conversion.To overturn that world that they have surrounded themselves with therefore is alsmost impossible. its intersting how many ex JWs embrace a new vision, with regard to paradise.
Logic therefore plays a small part and cannot be the magic bullet.
An emotional experience can trigger a change of thought processes.I would like to see a serious Documentary played on national television, with regard to the truth behind the Watchtower organisation. People like Ray Franz, could have influenced so many in this regard. This could be a magic bullet, with the emotional trigger.
Radar
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radar
My mother would often use the expression::
"he couldn't care a kipper's eyebrow"To this day I don't understand the association, but it always makes me smile when i think about it.
Radar
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2
A Walk Through The Garden part 3
by radar inno room to grow .
young people are expected to associate only with fellow jws.
if attending school, then involvement with any school activity or association outside of school hours is frowned upon.
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radar
NO ROOM TO GROW
Young people are expected to associate only with fellow JWs. If attending School, then involvement with any school activity or association outside of school hours is frowned upon. Talents an individual may have cannot be expressed if it is going to take time away from "theocratic activity".
Further education when leaving school is also deemed unnecessary, only to be pursued if a person has difficulty finding a job; but his motive for doing so is so that he can further the Kingdom interests, (increase his contributions)This type of “Kingdom outlook” makes it extremely hard for those who are not "ministry minded". It also isolates individuals who do not lean towards Kingdom interests. Separation among the “blessed” and the “less blessed” becomes apparent. Everyone wants a pioneers/Servants at their social gatherings and of course the perfect marriage partner must come from that group also.
My son began to suffer with depression, he had developed severe Acne and become very self conscious, not able to venture out the house. The hospital prescribed a vitamin A derivative drug called Roaccutane,to help his skin condition. The depression got worse, he felt the only way out, was to end his life. Two serious attempts at suicide followed. Regarding Roaccutine, we have since discovered, that a number of suicides have been recorded while people were on this drug.
On the second occasion, I remember waking up in the early hours of the morning, finding him collapsed on the sofa, shivering and shaking violently as if he had fallen into an ice cold pond. He had taken 28 high dosage capsules of Paracetamol, washed down with a bottle of whisky, this plus slug pellets, left the physician at the hospital giving us little hope of his recovery. Lying on the Hospital bed, my son was in agony but found the breath to say that things would be O.K, he would see us in the new system, in Paradise.
The speedy trip to the Hospital and onto a drip had saved Aron. It would be some weeks before he would recover fully, but it was during this period that I had some time off work, a long overdue time to reflect at what had been happening to my family. My mother had died the year before under distressing circumstances and I was thinking about all the things we could have done together when she was alive.
Now I had nearly lost my son, This had a profound affect on my wife and I, it caused me to do some real soul searching. This religion was said to be a "protection and blessing", yet 17yrs of religious "Cult like" separation from normal social contact, had taken its toll.
The months passed and very few called by our home to ask how things were. To make it worse the presiding overseer suggested that my son have a Bible Study!!!!!Well during those weeks at home I began to search for answers. the events over the past year had jolted me to my senses. Questions that you push to the back of your mind as a J.Witness, and thoughts that you do not permit yourself to entertain, now began to surface. I would no longer look at this religion through rose coloured spectacles.
I wanted to learn exactly what the "truth" was.part 4 tomorrow
Radar
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6
A walk Through The Garden Part 2
by radar ini had brought my family up in the way of christ, as i believed and we were rarely missing from meetings or field service.
yet as time went on, this regimented form of worship began to have its toll on us.. one meeting night, i found myself sitting at the back of the kingdom hall alone, my wife had begun to miss a number of meetings and my son who was then in his late teens had also stopped going.i felt that i'd failed my family and myself.
yet no matter how i applied myself to study and prayer the watchtower's answer to every problem a witness may have i found no joy in this way of worship and neither would i continue to pretend that i did.
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radar
YoYoMama
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You said it right, "in your mind". It helps to see things from Jehovahs perspective and not our imperfect human perspective.
_________________________________________________________________Can you tell me where The watchtower had Jehovah's mind with regard to making young children sit through full day assemblies with nothing more than a pencil and writing pad to occupy them with? and sit at 2 hour meetings, with the only possible contribution of saying the word "Jehovah" at his parents prompting, during a question and answer item
Where did they find this in the Bible?Radar
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12
Fear of Worldly People
by ItsJustMe inanyone else felt uncomfortable, awkward, wary, unsure, frightened, distraught, when around worldly people?
afraid they were going to try to seduce you, offer you drugs, get you drunk, kill you, etc?.
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radar
Itsjustme
If you cut out the "Worldly" bit, then you have just got "people".
Radar