Liberty, your path towards Atheism is enlightening and I thank you for sharing it. However, I find it sad. To think that faith, in the sense that they are correct and have explained everything, in a bunch of scientists is in my opinion very narrow minded and short sighted. Scientific thinking and truths cahnge everyday. What was thought to be "right" last year is changed this year.
Posts by RWC
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38Response to RWC's Atheist Questions
by Liberty inhi rwc,.
i'm sure you're a very nice person and i don't want to get into an argument but rather a civil debate.
i just wanted to point out that as ex-jws many of us are a little obsessed with truth (not to be confused with "the truth" tm) and that after being burned by the watchtower society and hating ourselves for being so stupid to have fallen for its bs we have now become highly skeptical of the bible as well.
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50
Why love God?
by joelbear inshould we love god and have faith in him because we are afraid of being annihilated if we don't?.
should we love god so we can be paid for it by getting a "mansion in the sky" or everlasting life or some other reward payment?
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RWC
Gopher, to answer your question, In the NIV version the word used in reverence, not fear. Verse 28 - Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.
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50
Why love God?
by joelbear inshould we love god and have faith in him because we are afraid of being annihilated if we don't?.
should we love god so we can be paid for it by getting a "mansion in the sky" or everlasting life or some other reward payment?
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RWC
I love of God because he loves me. It has nothing to do with fear. Fear as stated in the Bible really refers in most cases to respect.
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54
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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RWC
In a nuthsell, tou answer your questions, no. Acts describes that after his conversion Paul went to live with Peter for sometime. Clearly he would have been told about Jesus' life during that time. He does mention some of these things in his letters ( Jesus as a descendant of David, in Romans, the sequence of events in the last supper, First Corinthians, for examples.)
You and Wells are making an assumption that is the basis of your position that is unfounded. You are assuming that Paul wrote his letters to tell people of the daily activites of Jesus. That was the purpose of the Gospels. Paul was writing to particular churches that had already been established (so they already knew of Jesus and believed he was the Savior). He was writing to address certain problems in the churches and to teach them particular lessons. To do so he did not need to recount what the Gospels did.
Alot of what you are saying Paul did not know are contained in his sermons in Acts. For example see Acts 13:13 et seq.) Both what you have written and waht wells is attempting to convey is an intentioanl misrepresentation.
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72
Question for Atheists
by RWC inchristians who believe in the bible and the teachings of christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct.
for those who don't believe in god, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong?
what is your moral foundation?
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RWC
Pandora, the question I asked was not intended to offend. I was genuinely curious as to where those who do not believe in God or the Bible get their moral compass. Particuarly in our time when morals seem to be in such a downward spiral.
Abaddon,
I agree that people should not stay in abusive marriages and even in the Catholic church, those marriages can be dissolved. As for the statisitcs on marriages I do not understand the post from Runningman. If it is established that divorce rates in the U.S. are from 1/3 to 1/2, how can his stats. only show 9%? My source for my quote was a sermon. I will get the underlying data for you. But from experience I can tell you that the same behavior that I stated leads to marriages staying together, also leads to their happiness.
Finally, I appreciate your thanks for the prayers. But I would say that even if you cook Ice Cream you get a result!!! It may not be what you want, but that is the same with prayer.
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54
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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RWC
Joseph,
I hope you dod not misread my post on purpose. I said that Mark learned about Jesus from PETER. I did not say he learned about Jesus from Paul, although he was a disciple of Paul.
As for my age, your assumption that I am set in my beliefs due to growing up in a certain religion and therefore will not change is misplaced. My exact history is that I was raised in a protestant religion, fell away from all religion, and now have become a Roman Catholic as an adult in the past several years by my own choice. Actually in in direct contradiction to my upbringing and my family who are stout Southern Baptists ( even ministers).
So far, you and the other skeptics have not shown me anything to question my faith. I enjoy the debate, but the more I engage in it the more convinced I am that my faith is true. I should ask you your age, because I am trying to convince you that God exists, that he loves you and that He sent his son to save you from your sins so you can enjoy eternal life.
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54
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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RWC
Hello Joseph,
You have changed your argument. You are now saying that when Mark recounted Jesus calming the sea he understood that his readers would understand the similarities to the Jonah account. Earlier you argued that he made up the Jesus account by copying the Jonah account and that the similarities are the evidence that supports that idea. Do you see the difference in your positions? The fact remains that even though there are some portions of the two accounts that appear similar, that is not evidence that the Jesus account never happened. That is the conclusion you attempted to make at the begininng.
Do you agree that in both stories we find a sleeping sailor who is scolded by his shipmates for his lack of concern for his safety?
I do not agree as you have it worded. Jesus was not a sailor on the boat, for that matter neither was Jonah ( he was a passenger). Jonah was scolded for not caring about his safety, the disciples questioned Jesus' apparent lack of concern for their safety.
Do you agree that in both stories, after being awakened, the sea is calmed?
No. The sea was calmed after Jonah was thrown overboard, the sea was calmed after Jesus told the winds to die.
Do you agree that after the sea is calmed, rather than feel a sense of closeness to the divine one whose power saved them, they feel fear instead?
Partially. The sailors on Jonah's boat were non believers in God so they were afraid of him . The discipes were questionng who Jesus was becasue the winds obeyed him. Fear yeas, but for different reasons.
Do you agree that you know of no other stories since the beginning of time--beside the Jonah and Jesus ones--that have all of these very unique elements?
I haven't studied mythology or other historical accounts of events to the point that I can say that no other event has ever been recorded that had theses same similarities.
I have book marked the website you gave me and I will be studying it. However, my question to you was more specific. What scholars have made the same conclusion that you did that this Jesus account was a made up copy of the Jonah account?
As for Mark, I will correct myself to the extent that I implied that Mark was an eyewitness to this account. He was a disciple of Peter and Paul who learned of Jesus through Peter the eyewitness. He followed Peter and Paul on their missionary trips. According to the church historian Eusebius, Mark was the founder of the church in Alexandria in Egypt and its first bishop who died a martyr's death there.
The first verse indicates that what he is writing is true : The beginning of the gospel about Jeus Christ, the Son of God. (1:1).
I'm 38. Why?
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38
Response to RWC's Atheist Questions
by Liberty inhi rwc,.
i'm sure you're a very nice person and i don't want to get into an argument but rather a civil debate.
i just wanted to point out that as ex-jws many of us are a little obsessed with truth (not to be confused with "the truth" tm) and that after being burned by the watchtower society and hating ourselves for being so stupid to have fallen for its bs we have now become highly skeptical of the bible as well.
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RWC
Liberty,
As for my beliefs, I do believe that God created the universe and all that is in it. I do not know if he did it in seven twenty four hour days or if as the Bible says in his position a "day" may be thousands of years. The theory of evolution does support the idea that some species have evolved over the years, but as has been pointed out here, it cannot and doesn't attempt to explain the origin of life.
As for extrabiblical sources, these exist which cooberate the Biblical history. I will give you some of these in a later post.
I do not know if Noah was a world wide flood in the sense that the entire world was covered. A reading of the Bible even if taken literally doesn't require that view. Without knowing the extent of the world's population or where they lived at the time of the flood we really don't know how big the flood needed to be to accomplish the purpose as set out in the Bible.
I will add specific sites in a later post when I have more time.
God Bless
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38
Response to RWC's Atheist Questions
by Liberty inhi rwc,.
i'm sure you're a very nice person and i don't want to get into an argument but rather a civil debate.
i just wanted to point out that as ex-jws many of us are a little obsessed with truth (not to be confused with "the truth" tm) and that after being burned by the watchtower society and hating ourselves for being so stupid to have fallen for its bs we have now become highly skeptical of the bible as well.
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RWC
Liberty,
I accept your post in the spirit in which it was sent. I have heard alot of these arguments in the past and am always happy to do research on them. The more research I do, the more convinced I am of my faith. I did quite a bit of soul searching in my life and will continue to do so. For the record, I have never been a JW and do not believe they are Christian. I can understand the questioning that so many here have done once they leave that faith and the hurt that generally follows from being rejected by their family for doing so. I get the impression that that hurt leads some to forgo all religion and God in general which I beleive is an understandable but regretable reaction.
So to answer your challenge. I would be happy to research your arguments some more and I will engage in the civil debate. It will be fun and enlightening.
God Bless
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RWC
Thank you everyone.
QUOTE]1. With your mouse, position the cursor where you would like to begin copying. Left Click and hold down the mouse button to highlight the text you want to select. After the text is highlighted, right click you will see a pop up screen, select copy. Right click in the message box and select paste from the pop up screen.[/QUOTE]
It worked!!