Posts by RWC

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

We can engage in this debate without insults. Trust me, I do not need a grammer lesson. Your breakdown of Eph. 2:8 is simply wrong. It is taken out of context and not a proper examination of the sentence. The context makes it clear that it is the grace of God that is the gift that saves through faith and not works.

The NIV uses the word destroy. But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same. If faith before belief comes from God how can man upset it? It would be so firm that no man could undo it, unless you say that God gives out some weak faith and some strong faith.

I John 4:15 - If ANYONE acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your view is a very Calvinistic view of election that presupposes predestination.

Romans 3:22 - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christto ALL who believe.

If all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, than even those with the gift of faith before they believe in Christ are sinners. When does this change? When are they born again? What would be the need to be born again if the faith was always with them such that the Bible's promise of salvation applys to these people even if they are never born again? If you think that being born again is not necessary for salvation then you deny the words of Jesus.

13

Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

by JosephAlward in

in defense of the inerrancy of the bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

let's consider the case of the gospel called "mark.

" the writer of those jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill scripture?.

RWC

It is settled that Mark was John Mark the son of Mary ( not Jesus' Mary but another one). He was the cousin of Barnabas and a follower of Peter the apostle. He followed Paul on his missionary journey. he received the information for the Gospel from Peter. It was written sometime between A.D. 67 and 70.

Matthew was clearly an eyewitness. As was John.

Luke was a close friend and companian of Paul. He followed the early church and wrote Acts as well as his Gospel. It is dated around A.D.60

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing the message and the message is heard through the Word of Christ

Philippians 3:9 - Righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ

If faith comes from God, would you agree that it could never be destroyed? If so explain 2 Timothy 18. The words of some destroy the faith of others.

See Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. It doesn't say that he rewards those to whom he has given faith.

Eph 2:7-8 - The grace came from God, not the faith

Rom 12: 3 is an introduction of spiritual gifts and work people are called to do by God. They are told not to look down on others work because the church is one body. Spirtual gifts are given by God. we have no disagreement about that.

If you don't know you are chosen, how do you know you are God's slave? Maybe you are deluding yourself. You have no assurance of salvation at all, because if God didn't pick you, all your faith is in vain. or are you saying that everyone who has faith has already been picked. What about those who had faith at one point but now don't? Did God give that faith and then take it away?

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Where does faith come from? Once you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior you are given the holy spirit to increase and strengthen your faith. Galations 3: 5 - "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law or because you believe what you have heard? 3:24 We are justified by our faith.

Are you saying that God will decide who will have faith and who won't? So that a person who hears the Gospel, God will decide if that person will believe it or not? That is a narrow view of election and denies that Jesus died on the cross for all.

Free will started in Genisis when God gave the direction to Adam to eat from all trees but one. He was free to chose to follow God's direction or not. He chose not to. That is the same as believing or not believing in Christ. We are free to believe or not. If we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and increase our faith. But the intital choice is ours to make.

Look at Jesus' words to the blind and mute in Matthew 9:28 - He asks them "Do you believe that I am able to do this? They respond yes they believe. He says " According to your faith will it be done to you"

The same is true for our salvation. It starts with our belief in Christ as our savior. Once that door is opened God takes over from there.

Does God have to wait for our belief? Of course not. He is all powerful. But he has given us the choice to believe or not. That is what we do. Than through our faith we our saved.

Your definition of election has been descibed as follows: The traditional definition avers that election is God's act of choosing some persons for salvation and other persons for damnation. Do you agree?

My belief is as follows: God's grace has made salvation possible and in establishing a covenant relationship with all who believe. It centers on Christ's provisions of salvation rather than human destiny. I take it you would not agree.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Pom we can go around this all day. The ultimate question for you is who is chosen? How do you know? Are you saying that the chosen are the JW's? Are you denying that the Bible says that you are saved by grace through faith?

What do you base your thought on that Jesus telling people to go make disciples of all nations was only to the early congregations and not us?

Call to the Gentiles: Romans 1:5 - Through him and for his sake we received grace and apostleship to call people from amonf all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith.

Romans 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the Gospels because it is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes, first for the jew and than for the Gentile.

He describes to the jewish people that the law and its obidience to it was based on faith - Romans 4:1-4 He describes this to say that it is faith and not works that gave the Jewish people their rightousnes before God to justify that the Gentiles who believe are equally justified.

See Romans 3:22 - But now a righteoousness from God, apart from the law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness comes from God comes from faith in Jesus Christ to ALL who believe. For there is no difference for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Justification comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Its that simple.

Joseph- Your attempts here are falling way short. You start on the false premise tht Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote fiction about a fictional character and then try to fit your arguments into that premise. The truth is that Jesus was a real person and the people writing about his life wrote about what they witnessed and what they saw. We have been over that before in earlier threads so there is no need to repeat it here.

But, what evidence do you have that Joseph was not a carpenter? What evidence do you have that Jesus, as Joseph's son would not learn his trade and become a carpenter himself?

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Pom,

We have a far different view of salvation.

Are we not to preach the Gospel? See Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Matt. 28:19 -20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Your interpretation of Romans 9 is taken out of context. Paul is telling the Jewish people through examples of their history that God chose the Isralites as his chosen people, which was his right. Just as it is his right to spread salvation to the Gentiles. The Jewish people believed it was wrong to preach to the Gentiles and wanted to keep Jesus to themselves. Paul was explaining that would not happen.

Romans 10:9 says it all: That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". You are saved by grace through your faith. Just as I said.

88

How do you know if you're going to heaven?

by Christiangal in

the only way to go to heaven is believing that jesus christ is god's son, and that he was sent here to earth to die on the cross for our sins.

if you confess him as lord and savior, then and only then, will you be certain that you are going to heaven.

RWC

Christiangal,

Welcome. It is nice to have another Christian here to engage in the debate. You will find that some of the same people who have answered you here will respond the same way to similar posts in the future. It has helped my faith to argue with them even though I know that I will not change their minds.

I too believe that faith is a sign of humility. It says that you are placing your life in the hands of one who is not seen and who will direct your life for his will and not yours. You are giving up yourself for Him and subjecting yourself to his desires, not your own. You are saying that you cannot go through life on your own and that you need his help and guidance. You are not looking only to yourself and your own abilities when a crisis hits or you are in turmoil. You are becoming a servant. That is a clear sign of humility. How that faith is lived is where we show our pride and arrogance. It is one thing to say that we believe we know the truth and want to share it. It is another to put others down who chose not to believe. That is not Christian and that is not the example we are to show. To date you have not. Keep it up.

Six of nine,

I believe that your attempt to argue that God will like the non belivers more than those that believe is an attempt to rationalize your doubts. To say to God, I may have doubted you, but don't you think that that is more worthy than believing blindly. The Bible is clear that we are to accept our faith in Christ as a child. Total acceptance without doubt and complete trust. It doesn't mean we turn off our brains and become morons. It also doens't mean that those who use those brains to doubt God and to chose not to belive in him for what they consider evidence of his nonexistence, or the perceived lack of evidence of his existence are any smarter than those who believe. It is arrogant to imply that those who believe in Christ are ignorant and if we would only see the facts the way you do we would doubt as well. How is that line of thinking any different than what you profess to hate about Christians who profess their faith?

The facts that I see lead me to the conclusion that God exists as the Bible says and that Christ was God who came to Earth to save us from our sins so that we would have everlasting life. I see that evidence both in the Bible and in my life and the lives of those who believe in Christ. You are free to believe as you choose, but don't do what you profess to hate in Christians and critcize those that believe differently.

God Bless

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Pom, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I trust the Bible when it says that we have free will and the ability to choose Christ or reject him. Obviously God knows what choice we will make, but to say that the choice is predestined only for a few chosen is to say that we are the puppets of God and that the notion of free will is nothing more than a cosmic joke. True God has control over our lives and can do with us as he pleases for his own purposes, but the Bible is clear that we have the choice to accept Christ or not. We have the responsibility to spread the Gospel to everyone because everyone, not just a chosen few, have to be given the opportunity to believe in Christ. Those who believe in him will have eternal life in heaven, those who reject him will not.

To say that you are "hoping" that you have been chosen to do good is to say that there is no certainty in salvation. By placing your faith in Christ and making him your Lord and Savior you salavation is assured. To those who said "Lord Lord", and who will not get into heaven, Jesus was saying that he knew their heart and they truly did not believe. He was not saying, regardless of your belief I have previously rejected you so it doesn't matter. He was talking about False Prophets who are not doing the will of God he was not talking about predestined rejection. Matt. 7:21

I am not saying that man's will is greater than God's. It obviously is not. But I do believe that in order for God to give us free will so that we are not merely his playthings, he allows us to make that choice, even though he already knows the choice we will make.

The paln for salvation does not depend upon whether God wants it happen or not. He has already set out that plan. He reconciled us to him through Christ and those that believe in him shall have eternal life. I do not understand what you mean that only those that believe the right way will be saved. Please explain that one.

Our free will did not come from the devil. It was a gift from God. He allows us to decide whether we will accept his plan for salvation or not. That is the choice we make. Yes we are born with original sin and we are all sinners that fall short of the glory of God. But we are reconciled through Christ and those that believe in him will get into heaven.

By the way I would like your research on this matter.

Joe,

Your explaination of Mark is incorrect in an attempt to create a contradiction where one doesn't exist. First, just because mark doesn't start his Gospel with the birth of Christ doesn't mean he didn't know how it occurred or didn't care. Second, he did not create the irony for style purposes or to try and make sure that Jesus' life was lived as it was preordained. He was writing what happened as dictated to him by Peter.

To say that Jesus did not want people to know he was the Son of God so that they would kill him and not love him is silly. He was killed because he was proclaimed to be the Son of God. He was a threat to the established religion and when he gained a following by proclaiming that he was God, he was killed. Look at Mark 6:60 and Matt. 26: 62 where Jesus is being questioned by the high priest. the priest asked him if he is the living Christ, the Son of God. When Jesus answers he is, he is accused of blashphemy and found worthy to die which could only be carried out by the Roman government.

The irony is in the events, not in the making up of stories to fulfill scripture.

God Bless

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Pom.,

In John 17:6-19 Jesus is praying for God to protect his disciples who would continue his work after he leaves. He is not calling these people the chosen ones in the sense that there are others who are chosen and some in the world then or in the future who would not be. It is a very personal prayer for the disciples.

In John 17:20 he continues: My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message.

This is followed up by Paul who wrote in Romans 10:13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

To argue that no matter what you believe that Jesus may reject you through predestination makes faith in him meaningless. Clearly he chooses people for his purposes. he calls people to act as ministers, singers, evanglists, etc.. but that is different from saying that he rejects some from salvation regardless of their beliefs because he wants to. That would mean that you could say that you believe in Jesus which the Bible says is the key to salvation, yet Jesus says that is not enough because he rejected you. It doesn't fit.

God clearly knows what choice you will make. But his knowledge of your choice does not make it predestined such that you lose the ability to make that choice. And his knowledge of your choice does not start with his choosing which of us will chose him and which ones he decides will not. If that was the case what is the point? Why do any of this if the decision has been made for us?

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

RWC

Pom.,

This is where we differ. Jesus came to save everyone, not just a chosen few. John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. Not just the chosen few. He died on the cross for everyone's sins, not just those few that he loved. The Bible is clear that Jesus came for everyone. The fact that some choose not to accept him is their doing. To say that Jesus rejects first is contrary to the Bible teaching of what his ministry, dying and resurrection was all about. It also gets rid of the idea that we have free will to choose to believe or not which is clearly set out in the Bible.

Where do you obtain the notion that Jesus rejects and doesn't love some people who have not already rejected him first?

God Bless