jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.
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.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....
Is it so impossible to believe that Jesus was a messenger for God? A "chief messenger"/"chief of the angels"/archangel?
John 12:49-50 - For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.
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.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....
@ joey jojo - Jesus having a voice 'like an archangel ' does not automatically imply that he is 'the' archangel, does it?
Well, that quote is from 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and it accurately says in the KJV:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”
Interestingly, the YLT says, “because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first”
If you go to biblegateway.com and choose “1 Thessalonians 4:16 in all English translations”, you’ll see that not one of them says, “like an archangel”.
jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.
.
.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....
Exod 23:20-23 - “I am going to send an angel (“messenger”) before you to protect you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Be attentive to him and listen to him. Do not defy him, because he will not forgive your acts of rebellion, for my name is in him.
So, they were to listen to this “angel”.
22 But if you will carefully obey him and do everything I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.”
Who else at the time, but Jesus as the Logos, would be given the authority to guide the people in God’s word and to not forgive their acts of rebellion? (John 1:1; John 5:22,30) (1 John 5:20)
If God is truth, and Jesus is the word/truth of God (Logos) he would have God’s name in him…as an angel, as Michael the “archangel”, the chief messenger of God. (“who is like God?”)… and Jesus, God’s messenger/angel when he walked the earth ("YHVH is salvation"). (John 14:6;1:1,14; 17:17)
And it’s not the only time God told His people under covenant to “listen to him”. Luke 9:35 - Then a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, the Chosen One; listen to him!”
To support the angel as Jesus Christ in Exod 23:20-23 who would bring God’s people “to the place I have prepared”, is another scripture:
“Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor 10:1-4
There was no other angel/messenger to “to protect you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared”, except Jesus Christ as the messenger angel and Word of God.
Daniel 12:1 - “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise...”
Jesus is the great Shepherd of God’s people, His sheep. Shepherds protect the flock and save them from harm. John 10:2-4,9
“Then WAR broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” Rev 12:7
“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages WAR.” Rev 19:11
In Revelation 19:14, Jesus has his own army following him. So, are there two battling this war, two protectors of God’s people, with their own army of "angels", one called Michael and one called “Faithful and True”, who has the ability to judge? Many times Jewish names depict a divine assignment from God. No one questions the fact that Jesus is called, “Faithful and True” in this scripture. No one questions that in Revelation 19:12, Jesus has a name written on him that “no one knows but he himself”.
And no one questions that Jesus will give his new name to those who are victorious and stand alongside him in the battle against Satan, his demonic deceptions and his “angel”/messengers with him. Rev 13:12
“Angel” simply means “messenger” in both Hebrew and Greek. And it can be used to apply to people – Gen 28:12; John 1:51; Mal 2:7; Matt 11:10; 1 Tim 5:21
Jesus is also called the "Prince of peace" in Isaiah 9:6. In Daniel 9:21, and Michael is called "prince". So, does calling Jesus "Prince", degrade his position as God's Son?
"...And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6
i have known a jehovah’s witness for approximately 15 years and i have considered her a friend although i know that jehovah’s witnesses cannot have friends who are not jehovah’s witnesses.
approximately two years ago, i was going through a very difficult time and i asked my friend if we could have bible study.
she said yes and we have been studying the bible since.
Fallen__Winter,
Hopefully you are sensing hypocrisy in what you experienced, and in the information/experiences that has been given to you by others here. That's really just the tip of the iceberg.
“In the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together, so that they trampled one another, He began to say to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known.”Luke 12:1-2
The “leaven” is referring to anything - any teaching, directive, doctrine that lies outside of the word of God in Christ.
wally, a youtuber from jw thoughts highlighted something that was said by kenneth cook jnr in the annual meeting.
he thinks it may be removed before they publish the agm.
i doubt we would see it in writing either.. part of kenneth's talk was about the changes regarding disfellowshipping and the clip from jw thoughts youtube shows him saying -.
This definitely was a stressful or embarrassing presentation by Kenneth Cook. Maybe because he was standing up against the majority view of the GB? Or standing up against Mark Sanderson, who said previously,
“When a person has been removed from the congregation, we stop keeping company, not even eating with a man. However, that does not mean that a Christian can not invite a disfellowshipped person to attend a congregation meeting. Therefore we do not need to avoid them completely.”
I noticed how beet red K. Cook’s ears were by the time he said,
“Since sin is still on the earth, the Elders will continue to remove unrepentant ones from the congregation”.
And he is meaning to "drive out what is bad".
1 Cor 5:11 - "But actually, I wrote you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister and is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person."
JWs gather together to "eat" and "drink" spiritual "food". (Matt 7:15-20) Considering their corrupt doctrine, who then should the individual "drive out", away from themselves, if not the "anointed" apostate lying leaders of the Wt, who call themselves "brothers" of Christ?
"Don't work for the food that perishes (“adjustments, new light”) but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set his seal of approval on him."
"I am the bread of life," Jesus told them. "No one who comes to me will ever be hungry, and no one who believes in me will ever be thirsty again.” John 6:27,35
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
@FreetheMasons - Why is it so impossible to you that God would want to hang out with His own kids?
Why do you think it's impossible for the One who made the universe and everything in it to make a body to be able to visit the earth?
What do you think "God is love" really means?
Why do you overcomplicate everything?
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exod 3:14
Among the children of Israel, God did not walk with His children in the flesh, but He was with them in spirit.
“And let them make Me a SANCTUARY (tabernacle, holy place, temple), that I may DWELL among them. 9 According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.” Exod 25:8-9
That “pattern of the tabernacle” is heavenly, and explained in Hebrews 8:4-5 That is the template for the heavenly dwelling place of God in the Kingdom.
“To whom then will YOU liken God?
Or what likeness will YOU compare to Him?” Isa 40:18
“To whom will YOU liken Me, and make Me equal
And compare Me, THAT WE SHOULD BE ALIKE?” Isa 46:5
Do we dare compare God to a human? Should we wish for such a thing?
“God is not a man, that He should
lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Num 23:19
“For My thoughts are not YOUR thoughts,
Nor are YOUR ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher
than the earth,
So are My ways higher than YOUR ways,
And My thoughts than YOUR thoughts. Isa 55:8-9
God will be with His future children in spirit.
“Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.” Rev 21:2-3
Another sacred dwelling place where God will reside in spirit; this time in the hearts of those God has chosen as His “temple” to serve the needs of all His children in the Kingdom. 1 Pet 2:4-10; 1 Cor 3:16-17; 1 Cor 6:19-20; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 1:5-6; Rev 3:12; 7:15; 21:22-24
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
@FreetheMasons,
It's not me that's blocking "the way". It's God's word, the scriptural truth that's blocking your way, your desire to fabricate your own delusions about God. 1 Cor 2:14
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
@FreetheMasons -
When it says "they walked with Jehovah during the breezy part of the day" what do you think that meant?
Jesus, the representative and messenger of God, was the symbolic tree of life in the Garden. The “fruit” from that tree symbolized life and truth – the truth of God’s word. With the coming of Christ, life is again available to mankind through the tree of life for those who seek the understanding and wisdom of God. Revelation 22:12-14
He is the angel – MESSENGER, the meaning of the word, “angel”, both in Hebrew and in Greek …he was the messenger, Logos and spokesperson of God, who went before the camp of Israel. Exod 14:9
1 Corinthians 10:4 - and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
In Isaiah 63:9 – Jesus is called the “Angel of His presence”.
There, you see? God’s “presence” among mankind is through Jesus Christ.
Zech 12:8 - In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.
When Jesus was on the earth in the first century, he also represented God of course, as God’s Son and as His messenger, His spokesperson.
John 14:31 - But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Get up! Let us go on from here.
John 12:50 - And I know that His commandment is eternal life. Therefore what I speak, as the Father has said to Me, so I speak."
How did Moses talk “face to face” with God? Through His messenger, the Logos, through the Angel of His Presence. And by Holy Spirit. John 4:24; John 1:1,2
So, there are no scriptures that tell us that a God who is Spirit, walked in the flesh on the earth in the Garden of Eden. But there are scriptures that clearly explain the spiritual role of Jesus since the beginning of creation.
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58
Matt 7:15-20 – those whom Jesus chooses as HIS representatives, are also called trees. (Matt 10:25; John 13:13;1 Pet 2:21)
They can speak lies or truth. As Jesus said, we will know them by their fruits.
Revelation 2:7 - "Let anyone who has ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”
John 14:21; Prov 8:17
Seeing God literally, “face to face”, is impossible, but possible spiritually, by having spiritual perception, as God’s spiritual children. 1 John 3:2; 2 Cor 3:18
Num 6:24-26 - "May the LORD bless you and protect you; 25 "may the LORD make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; 26 "may the LORD look with favor on you* and give you peace."
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
@FreetheMasons - "Jehovah is coming back".
From where?
No scriptural proof whatsoever that God will walk the earth in the flesh.
“They see delusion and their omens are a lie. They say, "the Lord declares," though the Lord has not sent them; yet they expect their word to be confirmed.” Ezek 13:6
God is Spirit,(John 4:24) and we worship Him in spirit and truth. But His Son who walked the earth, and appeared in the flesh to his disciples even after his resurrection…
His Son, made in the perfect image of the Father (Col 1:15)…yes, he will, along with his angel/messenger anointed servants /symbolic "144,000") proven faithful, and all of God’s children.
“Also your descendants (Jacob’s descendants) shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Gen 28:14
Gen 28:10-14; 22:18; Gal 3:29; Rom 98:8; Acts 2:38-39; John 1:51; Heb 1:6; Acts 1:10-11
thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.
1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.
not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.
@FreeTheMasons – “Jesus wasn't king - yet - in 1914”
Is that the 1914 Wt. doctrine with a twist?
Jesus was a ruling, active king in the first century.
Matt 21:5 - “Tell the
daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”
John 1:49 - Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Luke 10:19 – “Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”
John 18:36-37 - Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Luke 11:20 - "If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Luke 17:20-21 - Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Mark 15:2 – Then Pilate asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” He answered and said to him, “It is as you say.”
John 17:1-2 - Jesus spoke these things, looked up to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him.
Matt 28:18 - And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”
John 16:33 - These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome (conquered) the world.”
John 5:21 – “And just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son also gives life to whom he wants.”
Luke 22:69 - "But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."
Psalm
110:1-2 -
The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your
strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
Heb 1:1-3 – “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”
2 Pet 1:3 – “as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue”
Heb 2:14 – “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,”
1 Cor 15:25,24,26 – “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death”
Rev 1:18 – “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”
I can provide more if you like. Surely you can see the power and authority Christ had while on earth, and after his resurrection. But can you provide scriptures that show Jesus didn’t begin reigning until or after 1914, (whatever you meant) sitting idle in heaven and waiting for men to designate a date that fits nicely in with their false doctrine?
