Sadie:
Any chance of getting a picture of hubby with the floral beach bag??
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
Posts by Scully
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31How BIG was YOUR JW book-bag?
by Scully inwhen i was replying to nicolas' question in another thread, i used the following scripture to show why jws are always so tired:"the scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of moses.
therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.
they bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.
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Scully
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Check out relatives struggle over Oregon killing
by belbab ini haven't seen any posting of this article here yet.
this is a must read .
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/10163697352835756.xml.
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Scully
Relatives struggle to grasp killings
03/17/02
MICHELLE COLE,
MAXINE BERNSTEIN, DANA TIMS and EMILY TSAOFaith ruled the lives of Robert and Janet Bryant. A crisis of faith drove them from California to Oregon. Faith in themselves then created a life in Yamhill County most people only dream about.
Four outgoing and energetic children cared for by a stay-at-home mom. Plans to build a house on a slice of land they owned free and clear. A thriving new business. Bills that were paid -- even ahead of schedule.Yet sometime after 7:30 p.m. on Feb. 23, Robert Bryant, who was by all accounts a loving husband and father, picked up a 12-gauge shotgun and almost ceremoniously killed his wife, two sons and two daughters. Then he shot and killed himself. Yamhill County sheriff's deputies discovered the bodies in the family's home Thursday.
Police, neighbors and grieving relatives on Saturday were still sorting out the circumstances that led to one of Oregon's worst mass murders. The man who sold the Bryants their manufactured home said he'd spoken to Robert Bryant on Feb. 21 about a repair. Bryant was his usual good-natured self, he said.
No clear motive has emerged for the murder-suicide, except that it was perhaps, as Janet Bryant's sister suggests, a desperate attempt by Robert Bryant to keep his children away from his parents and other California relatives. The family had become estranged three years ago after a wrenching break with their Jehovah's Witnesses congregation.
Robert and Janet Bryant were both 37 when they died. Their oldest son, Clayton, was 15; Ethan, 12; Ashley, 9; and the youngest, Alyssa, was 8. Their move to the McMinnville area last summer was supposed to have been a starting over, of sorts.
Robert Bryant grew up in Shingle Springs, a rural community about 40 miles east of Sacramento, where homes are nestled between horse ranches and dry foothills. His parents, Keith and Arlene Bryant, had raised their three sons and daughter in the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in El Dorado County.
Robert met Janet at a private high school affiliated with the church.
Married just out of their teens, the couple held weekly Bible classes and prayer meetings in their home, a teal-colored ranch-style house they rented before purchasing in 1997. Their well-kept property fronted to a gravel road, named Pleasant View Lane, and included 1.3 acres overlooking Sacramento Valley. On crystal-clear days, the family could see Mount Diablo from their front windows.
Neighbors recalled watching the Bryant children biking up and down the gravel road and Janet Bryant often walking the children to the corner to catch a school bus. The Bryants home-schooled their children for a while but eventually decided to send all but the oldest boy to public school in California.
Working with his father and brothers, Robert Bryant had a landscaping business and was often seen driving his white pickup truck and hauling lawn-mowing equipment in a green trailer. He worked weekdays and weekends, no matter the weather, a neighbor said.
"He seemed very loving and very kind and was always patting his children on the head," said Dana Jones, who lived next door.
The Bryant family enjoyed hunting, fishing and camping trips. They regularly attended prayer meetings with Robert Bryant's parents, his two brothers and sister, said Mark Messier, an elder of the congregation.
Robert Bryant was "cordial, very unassuming, mild and meek," Messier said.
Jehovah's Witnesses, according to their official Web site, believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God, whose true name is Jehovah. They believe that Jesus is the son of God but not equal to God or part of a trinity. Members are organized in congregations that worship in Kingdom Halls, and they believe that they are living in the last days before God establishes a kingdom on Earth.
Three years ago Robert Bryant, who had become a church elder, grew disillusioned with what he considered to be hypocrisy among the members. He decided to leave the faith, for which one of the basic tenets is not to question.
That decision prompted other church elders to hold a hearing leading to Bryant's "disfellowship" from the church and his isolation from his family and friends.
The practice, called shunning by non-Witnesses, is based on a biblical passage that urges believers not to associate with "any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reveler, drunkard, or robber -- not even to eat with such a one."
"He was expelled for conduct not in harmony with the Bible's principles," Messier said. "If they've chosen to be a certain way, you withhold association from them, hoping they realize the error of their ways."
Ouster distresses wife Janet Bryant was troubled by her husband's expulsion. She was upset when members of the congregation refused to say hello at the supermarket. She suffered fatigue and felt physically drained, said Sharon Roe, her younger sister.
"She was very torn," Roe said. "But she was the kind of person to hold her feelings in and be strong for her children."
Though Robert and Janet Bryant were to be avoided, the children's grandparents and aunts and uncles tried to maintain contact with the youngsters. Much to Robert Bryant's distress, Messier said, relatives had even sought legal advice on whether the grandparents could require visitation.
With most of his landscaping customers being fellow Jehovah's Witnesses, Robert Bryant lost jobs once he was ousted by the church. He filed for bankruptcy in January 2000. Court papers detail debts totaling $234,008 against assets of $203,776, mostly credit card debt.
The Bryants' list of assets included a '92 Chevy pickup, a '97 Chevy van, a 20-foot travel trailer, two cats, 11 chickens, one sheep, six rabbits and a puppy. The list also included two 12-gauge shotguns and two rifles.
In March 2001, Bryant's father disassociated himself from the landscaping business, further hampering Bryant's ability to earn a living in California.
"The way he described it, they were absolutely horrible what they were doing to him," said Albert Clary, who lived across the street from Robert and Janet Bryant in Shingle Springs.
By June, the couple had sold their house, loaded their belongings in the dead of night and moved their family to Oregon, where Janet Bryant had lived for a time as a girl and where the family had vacationed. They didn't tell their Jehovah's Witnesses relatives where they'd gone, Roe said.
Mark Marshall, a McMinnville State Farm insurance agent, said Robert Bryant had told him last summer that he left California because of a church dispute and that his parents were trying to gain custody of the children to keep them in the congregation.
Marshall said Bryant told him: "We're coming up here to get away from them."
Business improves The Bryants initially stayed at the Portland-Dayton RV Park in Dayton and then at the Olde Stone Village RV Park in McMinnville.
By October, the landscaping business Bryant had started in McMinnville -- often by going door to door in search of new clients -- began to pick up. He'd landed a few big accounts and provided Vern Skoog, general manager of Homes America, with records showing monthly earnings of $7,500.
The growing business enabled Bryant to close the deal on a $42,000, 1,300-square-foot double-wide manufactured home. The home was to be moved onto a 2.2-acre parcel that the couple purchased for $96,000. The property commanded a sweeping view of the countryside and featured the sounds of birds chirping and cows mooing and the common sight of deer grazing on a front lawn. By December, the Bryants had paid off what they owed on the property.
Marshall described Bryant as someone who was "exceedingly responsible for his age." He took out insurance on two cars and the house and never missed a payment, in fact sometimes paying early, Marshall said. "There's no way we think he was in dire financial straits."
The financial demands on Bryant were even more than a normal home buyer would face, due to the bankruptcy he'd declared 15 months earlier in California. But every time Skoog requested another record or canceled check, Bryant would pop back the next day with whatever was needed to keep the process going.
Bryant had confided that he planned to start building a wood-frame house adjacent to the modular home this spring.
"Everything seemed to be going great for them," Skoog said.
Why then, eight months into their new life, would Robert Bryant shoot his wife and then his children still tucked in their beds?
If he was too desperate to live, why not commit suicide but spare the family?
Nobody can answer such questions with certainty.
Killings rarely include children Murder-suicides occur more often than many people think. At least 159 Oregonians were involved in 75 murder-suicides from 1991 to 2000, according to data maintained by the Oregon State Police. Of the 75 cases, 56 involved a man killing his current or estranged intimate partner. In only seven cases, however, did a man take the lives of his children before killing himself.
A man who feels hopeless and isolated, as Robert Bryant might have if family and church ties were severed, is at risk for suicide, said Dr. James Hancey, an assistant professor of psychiatry at Oregon Health and Science University. If he has experienced big changes in his life, including a new job and residence, the stress in his life is magnified, even if he sought the changes, he said.
But Hancey said why a man might kill his family before committing suicide is harder to discern. While he was not familiar with the details of Bryant tragedy, Hancey said, sometimes such actions are related to distorted religious thoughts but may arise from other factors.
Messier said Bryant's family is grieving and "shocked" by the loss.
"We're devastated by what's happened," brother Lance Bryant said in a prepared statement. "They were all really dear to us and they'll be sorely missed. We're trying to deal with everything here, in terms of helping the family out."
Roe said she learned of the deaths about 2 a.m. Friday when she was visited by local law enforcement officers and a chaplain.
Seated in her living room, she listened to a deputy tell her there had been a murder-suicide in Oregon involving Robert Bryant.
"I heard Robert. I heard Janet. I heard Clayton. I kept thinking, 'It's got to stop. There's got to be someone left.' Then I realized all six of them were gone," she said Saturday.
"I rationalize in my mind that whatever he did, he must have done it out of love and out of protection for his family," Roe said. "In his own mind, he felt he was protecting them, and that's all I could reason out of it."
Critics have said the practice of disfellowship severs family ties, shatters individuals and may lead to suicide or attempted suicides. But Charles Hobart, who has been a Jehovah's Witness for 50 years and is a presiding elder of Northeast Portland's Beaumont Congregation, said he's never heard of a case when it was associated with suicide.
"I have a son who is disfellowshipped," he said. "We do see him. We have grandchildren and we don't want to lose contact, but we don't socialize much."
The hope when anyone is disfellowshipped, Hobart said, is that he or she will repent and ask to be reinstated in the congregation.
"That happens frequently," he said.
Repentance and reinstatement were apparently not in Robert Bryant's heart.
The six bodies were taken Saturday to a crematory. Yellow crime scene tape still surrounded the home. A wooden plank barred the door facing the road. A bare light bulb near the door burned brightly.
Signs of life disrupted could be seen in the most innocuous items. Children's bikes strewn around the yard, including a girl's bike with a pink basket. A bike helmet on the ground. Tools in the bed of a white pickup truck. A green trailer still attached.
There were also signs of life moving on. A black cat on the front stoop. And sitting on the corner of the property, a pot of white mums left by someone who wanted to pay their respects.
Staff writers Janet Goetze, Robin Franzen and Steve Suo contributed to this report. You can reach Michelle Cole at 503-294-5143 or by e-mail at [email protected]. You can reach Dana Tims at 503-294-5973 or by e-mail at [email protected]. You can reach Emily Tsao at 503-294-5968 or by e-mail at [email protected]. You can reach Maxine Bernstein at 503-221-8212 or by e-mail at [email protected].
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada) -
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The Exclusive Brethren
by refiners fire inthis is not about chat sites!!.
been doing a little reading on the "exclusive brethren" on the rick ross cult site.. here are some excerpts from an article written by an ex member:.
"the so-called plymouth brethren began in the late 1820's.
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Scully
you can't have common sewer lines??? why??? are they afraid their sh!t might stink up someone else's house??
and i thought the WTS was oppressive.....[8>]
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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WTS says 'true' Christians don't sin!
by ozziepost inthe april 15 issue of the watchtower carries this statement:.
"even though we are imperfect and make mistakes, if we pursue righteousness, he shows his love for us in ways that will result in life and blessings.
" (emphasis added).
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Scully
Have any of you read M. Scott Peck's book called The People of the Lie?
Peck makes some solid arguments in defining "evil" as a psychological diagnosis. Some of the characteristics of evil (individuals and groups) include narcissism which is a childlike belief that the world revolves around oneself, the belief that one is above reproach, as well as the tendency to use others as scapegoats. Also, the use of lying and falsehood to accomplish their goals is another characteristic of evil people and evil groups.
A good example of the scapegoating tendency was portrayed by Quotes in posting about his JW sister's letter in which she tells him that he is not invited to her wedding reception, 'her hands are tied', and it is Quotes' fault because "he left Jehovah" and that's how people are treated when they leave Jehovah.
Do not these four main characteristics together play major roles in the inner workings of the WTS and JWs? Is it any wonder that the WTS has forbidden JWs from participating in any psychological studies?? Is it any wonder that JWs are warned about seeking out the professional services of psychiatrists and psychologists for depression and other mental health issues?? The WTS is perfectly aware of what the findings will be, and they desperately do not want to be found out.
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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You will ALL burn in hell
by Uboat_Ninja inall you apostates will burn in hell when jehovah returns.
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Scully
Where did Jehovah go?? I hadn't noticed that he was away. I guess that's because he doesn't do anything around here anyway.
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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Test
by Gopher in.. -j.r.. this post was not evaluated by any mental health professionals.
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any opinions expressed are those of a fuzzy, cuddly rodent.
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Scully
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Competing In the name of Jehovah!
by Beck_Melbourne ininspired while posting on another thread, i was wondering, have you ever competed with other jws to get recognition or favour??
i can remember as a kid, being in a book study group with other kids, and when it came time to give an answer that kids could cope with...all kiddie sized hands would fly up and we'd all look at each other in the hope that it was our hand that got chosen.
i remember some kids would burst into tears if they didn't get chosen...and others would scowl or quickly go about looking for the next answer.
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Scully
oh, my Beck....... the memories are just FLOODING back!
We had this kind of "game" when we were growing up. Dad would read the Daily Text with us at dinner time, and to make sure we were paying attention, we were expected to be able to recite the scripture by the end of the reading. Of course, once we were able to do that, the "real" "fun" began. We would have these quizzes to see who could remember the most scriptures from the last 7 days. Guess what? there were no prizes! And we FELL FOR IT! DUHHHHHHHHHH
I had another immediate flashback to a wedding that I went to, where another sister was wearing exactly the same dress that I was wearing (only I bought mine FIRST!)
Then there was the time that I bought a fashion magazine to show a hairstyle to my mother so I could get something similar. I made the mistake of showing it to my "best friend" too. I wanted to wait to make the appointment for about a week or so because I wanted to get my hair done just before the Memorial. Well, imagine my surprise when at the very NEXT meeting, my "best friend" - who up until that point had long, straight hair that had never been cut - showed up with the hairstyle that I wanted!! Was I ever livid!! I ended up having it done anyway, figuring that I saw it first and nobody would make a big deal about it anyway, because I'd had my hair done many times in the past. Boy was I wrong! My "best friend" decided to use the opportunity to slam me for COPYING HER! Again, it was a glaring case of "my dad is an elder and I can do no wrong!" She wasn't my "best friend" anymore after that episode.
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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31
How BIG was YOUR JW book-bag?
by Scully inwhen i was replying to nicolas' question in another thread, i used the following scripture to show why jws are always so tired:"the scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of moses.
therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.
they bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.
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Scully
Oh, gosh, YES, Beck!!
When it came time for my parents to start going door-to-door, my mom (wanting to fit in, of course) asked where she could buy those leather service bags that were all the rage in the 60s and 70s. I believe they were mail-order things, but it made her so upset when the sisters WOULD NOT tell her how she could get one of her own. It was like it was a privilege of belonging to the clique of elders' wives.
My mom is quite clever with a sewing machine though, and out-did them. She cut up some grey lederhosen (don't ask!!) and using the nice grey suede-leather, she made her own book bag. It was one-of-a-kind, and the sisters who had their frumpy-looking, hard, brown leather book bags were quite annoyed that my mom's was so "stylish"!! LOL
I remember up until about 8 years ago, whenever I bought a new purse, the question "will this work in service too?" would cross my mind. Nowadays, my purse must hold a comb, my wallet and my cell phone. No more Watchtowers and Awake!s stogged in my purse, in hopes of that informal witnessing opportunity.
Farkel:
I always knew you had a big one.Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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How BIG was YOUR JW book-bag?
by Scully inwhen i was replying to nicolas' question in another thread, i used the following scripture to show why jws are always so tired:"the scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of moses.
therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.
they bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.
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Scully
When I was replying to Nicolas' question in another thread, I used the following scripture to show why JWs are always so tired:
"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]." - Matthew 23:2-5
So the claim Jesus was making, was that the scribes and Pharisees went around with enlarged frontlet bands (which contained scriptures) and long fringes on their garments for show.
Did anyone else ever notice that the more "spiritual" people wanted to appear, the bigger their briefcase was? Not just for field service, either. The COs and DOs I remember had the big honking box-like briefcases that look like they weighed about 40 pounds. You never ever saw an elder come to the meeting with "just" their Bible, songbook and study magazine.
So....... 'fess up!! How big was your briefcase??
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)
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How should I help my jw sister to get out?
by Nicolas ini don't want to put to much pressure on her because i know that she might .
consider me as an apostate if i do this but, i would like to help her because i had a chat with her today and she told me that she is always tired and she never have time to relax.
how can i get its mind to wake up and discover the real thuth?.
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Scully
Ah yes, the "happiest people on earth" complaining about how tired and burdened they feel. Funny, isn't it?? Try comparing Jesus' way with the way of the "scribes and Pharisees"....
"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light." - Matthew 11:29, 30.
Gosh, with all those big leather book cases that the elders have... it really makes you see them for what they really are."The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]." - Matthew 23:2-5
By the way - guys??? - how BIG was your briefcase/bookbag when you were a JW?? Curious minds want to know.
Love, Scully
UADNA-C (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-Canada)