one thing i remember the most about being "in the truth" was the basic premise that all other religious orgs on the earth at one time or another taught a lie (and or still was teaching lies).
this was the "crowning jewel" for the wtbs.
they never "lied".. in a recent conversation with an elder, he made mention of this again.
Just found this link:
http://www.joinme.net/chuck4002/smythrussell.html
I think it serves to show that the "lie" to the "Followers" started from the very beginning!
(More recent lies are of course even more helpful, since most "followers" will say that that is "ancient history" and not relevant to the works)...
By the way, anyone else ever get the "the end's justify the means" when discussing this stuff with them?
one thing i remember the most about being "in the truth" was the basic premise that all other religious orgs on the earth at one time or another taught a lie (and or still was teaching lies).
this was the "crowning jewel" for the wtbs.
they never "lied".. in a recent conversation with an elder, he made mention of this again.
One thing I remember the most about being "in the truth" was the basic premise that all other religious orgs on the earth at one time or another taught a lie (and or still was teaching lies). This was the "crowning jewel" for the WTBS. They never "lied".
In a recent conversation with an elder, he made mention of this again. He stated: "If there is any lie, then God would not recognize them, or their service..." Of course, he still maintains that the WTBS has _never_lied. His prime example against other org's teachings is Christmas. ("It is celebrated as christ's b-day, when it is not").
Of course, any reasoning about wether or not they actually "teach it" as his b-day vs. the symbolic nature of it only goes downhill from there.
My question for the group:
What would be your "prime example" of an "in your face" lie that you could "prove" the Watchtower taught to it's followers?
I think it would be extremely telling to have a "we never did/said this/that" with a subsequent proof that they did.
(IMHO, this cannot be a "lie" to the outside folks (since they would quote "theocratic warfare".) So it has to be a lie to the followers thru one of their own publications.
Since the WTBS nit picks that any amount of "lying" by another org disqualifies them, I think that applies to the WTBS as well.
Some of the ones that come to my mind:
1. thier revisionist history of thier own org. (I actually intend to show this elder the quote in the "divine pourpose" book where they state that they never published a biography of russel alongside of the actual "Divine plan of the ages" that contains said biography)
2. The misleading "mis quotes" of external sources. The ones from the Evolution/Creation book are the first to come to mind.
3. I love the preface to the Rutherford Light book:
No Credit is due and none should be given to any man for what appears herein. Te Revelation is God's, given to his beloved Son for the benefit of his servants and sent to them by the angels of the Lord.versus the current lines that they "don't claim to be inspired..."
Your thoughts?
i have been giving the blood issue alot of thought lately, and a "new" (to me anyway) approach to discussing why the wtbs is "wrong" on it came to mind.. i have found that discussing the "what does abstain really mean" and the "it was all about eating it, since the medical use didn't exist at the time" approach never truly works, you end up in an argument over words instead of meaning.. my thought:.
at times in the ot, did god withhold punishment for sins that were committed by the faithful?
if god could withold judgment for those sins, shouldn't the members of his "organization" do the same?
I have been giving the blood issue alot of thought lately, and a "new" (to me anyway) approach to discussing why the WTBS is "wrong" on it came to mind.
I have found that discussing the "what does abstain really mean" and the "it was all about eating it, since the medical use didn't exist at the time" approach never truly works, you end up in an argument over words instead of meaning.
My thought:
At times in the OT, did God withhold punishment for sins that were committed by the faithful? If God could withold judgment for those sins, shouldn't the members of his "organization" do the same? (If not more so, since they are not to sit in judgment to begin with)?
This actually goes way beyond the Blood issue itself, but since the WTBS holds the blood issue at such lengths, it seems that this is an easier line of reasoning then vs other "apostacy" stuff.
What are your thoughts on this?
the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that if the watchtower falls short to a significant degree then it cannot be jehovahs organization.
thats why apostates are hopeful that if enough fault can be found with the organization and brought to the attention of the faithful, then they too will accept the conclusion that jehovahs witnesses are not who we say we are.
unquestionably, many have been stumbled over a multitude of stumbling blocks.
You know:
Still waiting for a response from you on my earlier post.
....
the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that if the watchtower falls short to a significant degree then it cannot be jehovahs organization.
thats why apostates are hopeful that if enough fault can be found with the organization and brought to the attention of the faithful, then they too will accept the conclusion that jehovahs witnesses are not who we say we are.
unquestionably, many have been stumbled over a multitude of stumbling blocks.
You Know:
a few things:
1. I did not say that a king did not have Power. I said that a "true king" did not NEED power to ASSERT his authority.
2. You quoted:
"There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in POWER." Mark 9:1
So, wouldn't that mean that the kingdom of god is already here (and has been?)? Or are those people still walking around? (or was it not really meant for them to whom it was said and it was "really" meant for "some other time").
3. If Jesus was the "fullfillment" of the Law, doesnt that mean that god has fullfilled his requirements under it? and that he has completed all of his requirements?
4. If you are looking for an "earhly kingdom" (as the Pharisees were) aren't you missing the point? Christ's Kingdom is not of this earth, it is a spiritual one. All those who recognize him as king are therefore his subjects, and his Kingdom is created.
......
the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that if the watchtower falls short to a significant degree then it cannot be jehovahs organization.
thats why apostates are hopeful that if enough fault can be found with the organization and brought to the attention of the faithful, then they too will accept the conclusion that jehovahs witnesses are not who we say we are.
unquestionably, many have been stumbled over a multitude of stumbling blocks.
You Know:
Question about "Christendom":
You said:
During the time leading up to Christ's presence, those few and scattered anointed ones had no choice but to worship within the confines of apostate Christendom...How does one get "apostate christendom" prior to Christ's presence? since before Christ's presence, there was no "christianity"?
The Jews had the "law" and works of the law to prove their faith unto god. When did the Jews (prior to Christ) worship within the confines of "apostate christendom"?
the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that if the watchtower falls short to a significant degree then it cannot be jehovahs organization.
thats why apostates are hopeful that if enough fault can be found with the organization and brought to the attention of the faithful, then they too will accept the conclusion that jehovahs witnesses are not who we say we are.
unquestionably, many have been stumbled over a multitude of stumbling blocks.
oh, ok....
The jews were god chosen people. they get credit for PRODUCING the SON OF GOD simply because he was a Jew and had a jewish heritage.
You are eliminating the fact that God intervened and CAUSED the birth to take place.
You are eliminating the fact that he had an existance BEFORE he was born (as a jew).
In effect, you are minimizing everything that made Jesus the Christ!
The original disciples may have been under the jewish law, but it (the jewish law) did not move them to be disciple, Christ did. They would not have come to be disciples just by virtue of being under "the law".
A kingdom by definition:
king·dom Pronunciation Key (kngdm)A true "King" does not need power to "assert" his authority. His authority is made manifest in his actions toward his subjects.
n.
1. A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign.2a. The eternal spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ.
2b. The realm of this sovereignty.3.A realm or sphere in which one thing is dominant: the kingdom of the imagination.
4. One of the three main divisions (animal, vegetable, and mineral) into which natural organisms and objects are classified.
The highest taxonomic classification into which organisms are grouped, based on fundamental similarities and common ancestry. One widely accepted taxonomic system designates five such classifications: animals, plants, fungi, prokaryotes, and protoctists. See table at taxonomy.
You are also applying man made restrictions of "legal basis" and "communication/education" to a "spiritual" kingdom.
.....
the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that if the watchtower falls short to a significant degree then it cannot be jehovahs organization.
thats why apostates are hopeful that if enough fault can be found with the organization and brought to the attention of the faithful, then they too will accept the conclusion that jehovahs witnesses are not who we say we are.
unquestionably, many have been stumbled over a multitude of stumbling blocks.
(Long time lurker...)
You know just said:
For that matter, even though ancient Israel frequently went astray and brought more or less reproach upon Jehovah, they nonetheless were a success in that they preserved the holy writings and produced the Christ as well as a faithful remnant who became Christ's initial disciplesSo, the jews PRODUCED the Christ? Where does that come from? And they produced the faithful remnant who became?...
Somehow I thought GOD (the creator) produced the Christ, and Christ "found" the disciples...
Please explain... after all you almost had me converted till you said that!
One more question, for you.
What does it take (in the simplest terms please, after all, I am certainly not as annoited as you are) to make a "kingdom"?
i thought this deserved its own thread...below is a reply a made to one of the previous threads ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=24473&site=3 ) and i am anxious for someone to refute it...or maybe i'm right.. not quite...it seems everyone is muddling the details on this.. it seems that james mccann, who donated the stocks to the wt, invented an improved rotary engine called a rand cam engine.
his company, the rand cam engine corp is a privately held company, but he has donated 50% of the stock to the wt (but retained the voting proxy so the wt has no say in what is going on), he owns 34% and the balance is owned by several shareholders.
this company is half owner of another company called rand energy group.
This all begs the question(s):
Isn't owning stock taking an interest in the world and worldly affairs?
Since armageddon is so near, wouldn't "long term" investments in worldly affairs be misuse of the master's stuff?
For some reason, I want to think that the WTBS has told the follower's not to do these things (similar to going to college, investing in the "future"...etc...)
Just thoughts.
Really dont care who's stocks they own, moreso the question of why they own them to begin with.
while the watchtower has suffered from a number of.
declines in various areas, there is no greater decay.
manifest than in its current publications.. as a teenager growing up, the 'truth' was, to me, a system of.
Hi, let me introduce myself. I was a member in my younger years (ages 6-16) and found the truth after leaving the organization. I Only recently started looking at the overall history and teachings of the WTBS. This board has been both very informative and a help.
This is my first post, possibly of many to come.
I have been discussing things with an elder for awhile now, and was just about to ask him this very question:
If all the "annointed" ones were chosen from the "generation" (orig light, not new "light") of 1914 ??) who was going to feed the sheep now?
Also very interesting to hear him continue to say the following things:
1. I don't care about what was written/said, etc in the past. Only the work matters.
2. The end justifies the means.
Curios, are these statements a common thing among "modern day" members? I was a bit taken aback.
New light cannot "extinguish" old light.
