Posts by simwitness

If you dont see the toolbars, then you "probably" do not have Java enabled, or have a higher security setting which is preventing the applet from loading.

The "old" method for quoting things was to surrond the text you want quoted with

and

.

Windows 98 should be fine, check your browser security and advanced settings to make sure that Java is enabled. Medium security should be a fine defualt setting, unless you are oiverly paranoid about these things.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

That's silly. I referred to Christ's command to put away the sword. Do I really have to cite chapter and verse? I referred to Christ's command to preach about him and his kingdom. Are you so illiterate that you cannot supply the verses for yourself?

I was wondering how long it would take for you to start the name calling and personal attacks..

No, I recognized the references, and I also recognized your "reasoning" on them. I countered that with the simple fact that other christian organizations can (and often do) claim the same thing. You have not presented any clear scriptural evidence that uniquely identifies the WTBS as "God's Organization" (or the center of his "Spiritual Organization" for that matter).

More correctly, it is a matter of faith, faith being the "demonstratble reality of things not beheld."

Well, Webster's definition of Faith is a little different:

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often FaithChristianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

so, faith is not "demonstratble reality of things not beheld". How can it be demonstrable if it is not "beheld"...???

No, you dodn't get it. The decoupling will occur at God's hand when the Watchtower goes face down in the mud

Well, apparently you don't get it. Perhaps "God's Hand" is happening right now and you are faced with a decision on what you will do next, based on the evidence you already "know" about the org. You are looking for a big "visible event", when the only one that matters is the event that happens in your heart

Those who have faith will make the right choice because Jehovah's angels will help them

Yep, and many of us "apostates" have already done so. What will you do?

Oh, and btw, when the shakeup occured in 1916-1919 within the "Organization" the apostates (by definition) did gain control of the WTBS. But that is a topic for another thread.

Edited by - simwitness on 23 July 2002 12:36:14

Edited by - simwitness on 23 July 2002 12:39:5

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

I answered the posters questions reasoning from the Scriptures. Obviously you have no response except to advance your own delusion that I somehow didn't answer the question. / You Know

But, you have not answered the question showing biblical SCRIPTURE as proof that the WTBS is "God's Organization" on the earth. You have only shown your "reasoning from the scriptures" that lead you to "think" that it is the "real deal".

Those are undeniable facts. No other religious organization can even come close to measuring up as regards obeying Christ.

That, is still a matter of OPINION. In fact you have even stated that

First off, the WT is largely a pubishing company, so it is not really Jehovah's organization. Jehovah's organization, as I pointed out, is a spiritual organization.

And on that, we agreed. (or I assume we did anyway).

The real "Dilemma" that you face, You Know, is now that you have admitted that

So, I believe that the final test that will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses will be the decoupling of our faith from the Watchtower organization.

You have to decide what you will do next. IF you stay, you are a hypocrite, and if you decouple, then you join us "apostates". For you, that must be one hell of a dilemma.

I will comment on your Luke 21:8 ramble a bit later.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

Is that it Simiwitness? Anything else? / You Know

You Know,

Nope, just now getting back to the board.

First off, the WT is largely a pubishing company, so it is not really Jehovah's organization. Jehovah's organization, as I pointed out, is a spiritual organization.

No argument here.

Nonetheless, the Watchtower is at the center of that organization at the present time. So, in the previous thread I provided a few reasons why I think Jehovah's Witnesses are the real deal based upon the fact that we recognize Christ as our leader.

OK, so you "think" that they ar the real deal. Again, I have no problem with that, since that becomes your OPINION and is not based on anything other than your own perceptions of things. Many other organizations outside of the JW would and do say the same thing.

The question posed however, was for biblical proof that they are, and not your "thinking" on the matter. So at this point we agree on two things:

1. That "Jehovah's Organization" is a spiritual organization.

2. That you "think" that the organization known as "Jehovah's Witnesses" is the center of it. (I do not agree with this, since if Christ is our leader, he must certainly be the "center" of it.)

You did not answer the second question at all.

If Christ is your leader, how can you ignore his SPECIFIC instructions at Luke 21:8?

Secondly, you stated:

But, the apostolic warning is: "Do not believe every inspired expression, knowing that many false prophets have gone forth into the world."

And exactly how would you recognize a false prophet? How many lies does it take?

And more importantly, once you recognize an organization (any organization) as that (a false prophet) why would you stay?

You have already stated that Jehovah's Organization is a spiritual one, how can aligning oneself with an earthly organization that is blatently NOT recognizing Christ as their leader be a good thing?

Those that have already recognized that and left the "earthly organization" in favor of the "spiritual organization" are not apostates at all. As you said:

So, I believe that the final test that will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses will be the decoupling of our faith from the Watchtower organization.

So, why do you call us apostate simply because we have already "decoupled" from the Watchtower, especially considering the fact that they are mearly a "publishing corporation"?

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

Nice try, YK, however you did not answer my question in the previous thread.

1. Please present scriptural evidence that UNIQUELY IDENTIFIES the WTBS as "God's Visible Organization" on the earth. The other thread simply muddies the point of what constitutes "God's Organization". You assert that the WTBS is this organization.

I am asking you to defend your faith in the WTBS as that organization using ONLY the bible.

2. I am not particularly interested in "... stumbling blocks today that exist to provide people with all the justification they need to reject the truth as actually being the truth. " I am asking a direct question.

Is there any teaching in the bible that would specifically instruct people NOT TO FOLLOW organizations such as the WTBS based solely on their teachings? If the organizations own teachings are the stumbling block, how can they be "God's Visible Organization" on the earth? (If you need some help here, go read Luke 21 and comment on it's warnings to the followers, and contrast that with what the "organization" known as the WTBS has taught over the past 120+ years).

Edited by - simwitness on 22 July 2002 16:20:6

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

You Know...

Still waiting for a response from you on the two questions I asked.

If you do not desire to answer them, please say so.

49

Is There a HELL ??

by 67mustang in

according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".

i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".

wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.

simwitness

I have posted this before, and will post it agian, since it seems relevant...

One of my favorite quotes, and this sums up my feelings on the matter entirely:

I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter. --Thomas Paine

10

Numbers Not Meaningful?

by NeonMadman in

i just finished watching the panorama report on jw pedophiles, and like many of you, i am thoroughly disgusted at the watchtower's lying, maneuvering and hypocrisy on this issue.

they are truly a wicked organization, deserving of the worst judgment of both god and man.. one statement they made that just leapt out at me was when the bbc reporter asked the person on the phone at brooklyn bethel how many names were in the society's database of pedophiles within the organization.

the response from the watchtower spokesman was that "focusing on numbers isn't meaningful.".

simwitness

You're kidding right, Hawaii and Alaska are part of the US????

And I agree, focusing on the numbers isn't important... knowing that there is at least ONE is ONE too many.

Had they really wanted damage control, they would have to say "we have NO records of Pedophiles". Admitting they KNOW about them makes them liable, in my book.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

You Know...

1. I would like for you to present your BIBLICAL evidence that the WTBS or the group calling themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" is/are God's chosen organization on earth today.

2. Is there any BIBLICAL evidence (or reason) NOT to follow the WTBS (or similar groups) based on their teachings alone? (this is irrespective of the current scandals that cause them (the WTBS) to need "cleansing")

I think these questions are straightforward enough for you to answer, and answer honestly.

Thank you.