TonusOH

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Posts by TonusOH

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  408

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

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  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  TonusOH

  Halcon, all of those originate in the brain, a physical object. I consider them physical phenomena.
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  408

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  TonusOH

  Sea Breeze: A materialistic view of the nature of man is the underlying problem that you and others are having.

  Not exactly. Recognizing the physical nature of the universe is not a presupposition, nor does it require one. It reflects the most basic understanding of the world that surrounds us.

  A person may decide to take up the presupposition that the material world is all that there is, but this is an unnecessary complication, since it requires that he demonstrate a negative. It is perfectly reasonable to accept that the material universe exists and is measurable, and to expect evidence for any claims that posit anything outside of the physical.

  By definition, a presupposition is made and kept in light of the lack of evidence. If you have evidence, then you do not need to presuppose an idea. Religious presuppositions are easy enough to spot, since they are supported by attempts to fit them into gaps in our knowledge or understanding. There is no evidence for gods or souls (or similar spiritual concepts) that doesn't take the form of "if X is not true, then how do you explain Y?" Try it. Find an approach that doesn't amount to one of the following:

  If A is not true, then how do you explain B?

  If A is not true, then how do you account for C?

  How does D make sense, if A is not true?

  How is E possible without A?

  ...and so on.

  This should come as no surprise. If there was a way to measure such things and come up with consistent outcomes, the world would follow one religion and one god (or however many gods there might be). Lacking this evidence, mankind has worked its way through dozens --if not hundreds-- of religions and thousands --and possibly hundreds of thousands-- of denominations within those religions. Without evidence --without something we can test-- presuppositions are all we have. And they are not enough.

  As an example, there is no need to presuppose that water can exist in three different states. We discovered this through observation and confirmed how it works through research and testing. We know most (perhaps all) of the combinations of temperature, air pressure, and other factors that determine the forms that water can take. The experiments are both obvious and simple.

  Not only is there no test for determining the triune nature of Yahweh, but there is no consensus on the matter among people who share almost all of the same presuppositions related to the god of the Bible. There is no way to test or confirm the 'triality of man,' either. Theists themselves will admit that this cannot be done; they depend on the Bible and on the centuries of constant interpretation of its words and meanings. And --as we can see in some of the discussions here-- we seem no closer to figuring it out than we were centuries ago.

  The natures of water and deities are not comparable. The metaphysical does not have the same legitimacy as the physical. The latter is undeniable. The former is as yet only a concept. Without actual evidence, that will not change.
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  27

  1925--2025... 100 years since Rutherford promised paradise earth.

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  rutherford wrote in 1925 "millions now living will never die"...they died.

  he also promised that moses and david and all the old bible heroes would live with him in his mansion.

  only he lived there till he died in 1942...100 years and not much changed..

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  TonusOH

  The end-times nutters are crawling out of the woodwork, all of a sudden. We may need to start a list of these new dates, so we can check them off as they pass without anything happening.
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  26

  Age Appropriate Friends

  by Riley in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we have a 25 year guy in our hall who is also a pioneer (which means he lives off his parents money), who likes to spend a lot of time with a 16 year old girl in the hall.

  it is usually in a group setting but he seems to gravitate toward her.

  he even has her auxilary pioneering , which is something i don't think any student trying to make the grades needs.

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  TonusOH

  Jan: Surely there should be a safeguarding officer.

  There's no official position of the sort, though the expected action would be for a concerned person to speak with an elder and express any concerns, which would then (presumably) be investigated by the body of elders. I don't think there is much in the way of guidelines. Elders would be expected to talk to this person privately and provide spiritual guidance if they considered it necessary.

  Ideally, they would not tell the person who expressed concern, but that's not always guaranteed. I have heard too many stories of elders who would become annoyed when anyone 'bothered' them with issues like this. So they would make it a point to identify the person who brought up the issue, thus creating exactly the sort of problems that they were supposed to prevent.

  JW elders are handed a Bible and little else, and expected to deal with a wide range of issues, some of which they are clearly not prepared to deal with.
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  13

  2025**S-147**January** Announcements.

  by Atlantis in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  2025**pdf**s*147**announcements.. here.. https://pdfupload.io/docs/73dbf41c.

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  TonusOH

  Thank you so much for doing this, Petra.
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  22

  Is the Watchtower Ultimately a Creation of Fallen Angels?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a watchtower in ceremonial magical tradition is a tutelary spirit of one of the four cardinal points or quarters (east, south, west and north).

  in many magical traditions, they are understood to be enochian angels... originating with the enochian tradition of john dee, a version of it was popularized by the hermetic order of the golden dawn, which became hugely influential in modern western esotericism, including wicca.

  the watchtowers are invoked during the ritual of casting a magic circle.. .

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  TonusOH

  In the 80s and 90s, I can recall discussions my mother had with other JWs about demons and demonic presences and even actual attacks. She would tell stories of such experiences that she had been told about. Once I got out, I noticed that all of those stories were third/fourth-hand tales. I don't recall a single person explaining something that they dealt with directly; it was always a distant relative, or a friend of a friend, and so on. But, oh boy, did we believe them!

  Invisible oppressors are a convenient go-to for a lot of religious and superstitious people, as it can be used to explain stuff that otherwise would make them uncomfortable. If people of other religions are having supernatural experiences that "prove" that their faith is real, the obvious way to deal with that is to claim they are deluded. But that could also be applied to experiences that support their own beliefs. So they prefer to claim that the experiences that do not support their beliefs must have involved demons. It still leaves them open to the question of how they can be sure that they're right about who is being deceived.
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  2952

  It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

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  TonusOH

  Journeyman: The continued arrogance of specifying a number he expected to join.

  This is only part of the issue. It is a weird approach, to state your exact goal instead of growing the numbers organically. After all, what happens if you surpass your goal? Do you reset it? Do you stop asking for support?

  The other part is that he isn't doing anything to grow his support. His output appears to be low and uninspired, which is what we predicted would happen as the people who did the bulk of the work left. He has nothing to pivot to, in part due to his lack of ambition and in part because his past is still haunting him. (I would encourage him to keep trying to become an influencer, and ignore the people who point out that he looks like a goddamned clown.)

  I expected him to be under 300 by now, but it seems he will hang on a bit longer before he hits that next negative milestone. Ironically, the lack of interest from his critics might hurt him the most-- he won't be able to use 'persecution' as a selling point. Does he ever mention the lawsuit anymore? No? I wonder why...
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  88

  Annual Report

  by St George of England in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

  george.

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  TonusOH

  I wonder if the slower decline of JWs is due, in part, to the door-to-door work they did for so long. That's a level of dedication that people cannot help but notice. Sure, many people notice it when they are being bothered on a weekend morning or accosted on the street, but at least some people will admit that it takes some dedication and a bit of brass to keep doing it, especially in places that aren't all that nice to walk around in.

  Could the recent changes lead to less activity in the field? And can this lead to a short-term increase, as people notice that JWs are not going door-to-door as zealously*, followed by a period of decline as they begin to fade into the background of public perception?

  * In other words, the cessation of the door-to-door work might be seen as a sign of the end.
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  16

  Jesus Christ Will Arrive Within The Next Four Minutes! (parody)

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. social
  2. humour

  yes, you read that correctly!.

  jesus h. christ will arrive within the next four minutes!

  in fact, by the time you read this, he may have alreadt arrrived!.

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  TonusOH

  As Tolkien once wrote: "Armageddon is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
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  2952

  It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

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  TonusOH

  Probably more arm-twisting, guilt-tripping, and begging. He doesn't seem to be doing much to earn additional support, so it's only a matter of time. I'm just waiting for him to put out a video admonishing his supporters for their lack of generosity, by pointing out that he was only able to take four or five vacations last year.