Posts by stevieb1

120

Quality of this Forum

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

just a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.

some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.

why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion

stevieb1

Just a quick thought - I am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time I honestly can't say that I can introduce a doubting JW interested in true Christianity to this board. Some of the deep discussions on JW doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion. Why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.

Sorry for my frank opinion

4

EXCLUSIVE Official GB Publishing Committee Report

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

publishing committee report .

a report from the publishing committee on making the best use of contributed funds.. five years ago because of construction in the united states and throughout the world on k. h. and a. h. and branches the needs were greater than the available funds putting quite a strain on the resources.. the design build committee limited any building projects to only those absolutely necessary.

this resulted in saving millions of dollars just the first year.. the operations committee with the help of a new integrated computer system was able to make some significant changes.

stevieb1

Tell me what you think

Publishing Committee Report

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A report from the Publishing Committee on making the best use of contributed funds.

Five years ago because of construction in the United States and throughout the world on K. H. and A. H. and branches the needs were greater than the available funds putting quite a strain on the resources.

The design build committee limited any building projects to only those absolutely necessary. This resulted in saving millions of dollars just the first year.

The operations committee with the help of a new integrated computer system was able to make some significant changes. Formerly there were 6 purchasing departments, 13 receiving departments and 262 inventory locations at Brooklyn, Patterson and Wallkill. Now there is 1 purchasing department, and just 7 service centers handling the receiving and inventories. The inventory has been drastically reduced and millions of dollars have been saved.

New energy efficient boilers located in the Towers residential building are now also supplying all the heat and hot water for not that building only but also the other main buildings on Columbia Heights.

An integrated financial reporting system has enabled them to consolidate funds. These have been used for K.Hs, Branches, etc in other countries such as Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa and some of the Pacific Islands. Places that do not have the necessary materials, resources, funds or experience to engage in such projects on their own.

Since November 1999 a new program was instituted for building some 2000 K.H.s in the above areas. Local volunteers who were able to work full time on such projects are being provided with food and lodging. By the end of this past service year 1,750 K. H.s have been completed. In
Rwanda for instance 90 K.H. were built for less than $9,000 each in the 2001 service year. Tanzania built 177 K.H. for less than $10,000 each. And Malawi saw 195 K.H. for $6,000 each. By the end of August 2002 they expect to complete a total of 350 K.H. in that one country alone.

Donations unfortunately have not kept pace, but have decreased even prior to September 11. Now we see severe economic conditions resulting in even less funds avail able for expansion.

The Bethel family of 20,000+ worldwide is being urged to help conserve resources. As an illustration if each of the 20,000 Bethelites turned off a 100-watt bulb for one hour each day, at the end of the year there would be a savings of $25,000.

Well, we live in exciting times and we will have to wait on Jehovah as to what the future holds for all of us and up here at Bethel as well.

10

Where Was The Governing Body?

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

where was the governing body (per the wt understanding of acts).

1. after the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce?.

2. when john was penning revelation from patmos?.

stevieb1

Where Was The Governing Body (per the WT understanding of Acts)

1. After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE?

2. When John was penning Revelation from Patmos?

3. In the Second Century AD?

History and Scripture are silent on all three points. Where were matters of importance relative to doctrine and "the first century organization" sent during all three time periods? Can any JW demonstrate from history and the Bible that there was a Governing Body operating in Jerusalem (or elsewhere for that matter) on all three occasions)

15

WELL WORTH READING: JW's + 144,000

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

found this material on an yahoo egroups site on greek theology on which quite a number of witness apologists contribute.

there is quite a bit of interesting stuff on here, but here is a worthwhile comment made on the 144,000 as they relate to the "fds class" and jw's since 1879. establishes from purely mathematical point of view that the 144,000 cannot be a literal but figurative.

quote:.

stevieb1

Found this material on an yahoo egroups site on Greek theology on which quite a number of Witness apologists contribute. There is quite a bit of interesting stuff on here, but here is a worthwhile comment made on the 144,000 as they relate to the "FDS Class" and JW's since 1879. Establishes from purely mathematical point of view that the 144,000 cannot be a literal but figurative
QUOTE:

I think I have discovered a possible reason why it is that no JW participant in this forum is able to concretely identify any individual or group of the "slave class" from the apostles to Charles Taze Russell.

There is very strong evidence that there were many more than 144,000 Christians in the first century. Philip Schaff estimates that there were about 1 million by the end of the first century and about 10 million by the time Christianity was declared legal in 313 and the official persecution by Rome stopped. That doesn't count the millions that were killed.

Even if one doesn't want to count those that were not completely committed, which is pretty difficult when being a Christian meant being an outlaw under a death sentence - but, by any count there must have been far more than 144,000. If the "two classes" doctrine is true, there were no anointed in the 19th or 20th century.

Be that as it may, I would like to mathematically consider the biblical conversions to Christianity in light of the Watchtower's doctrine of a faithful and discreet slave class which is comprised of 144,000 individuals from the time of the apostles to our present day.

In the first century, at Pentecost 3,000 person were baptized. Later the account refers to "five thousand men" as among those accepting the gospel. (Acts 2:41; 4:4) In the years that followed, not only was there further growth in Jerusalem, but churches developed throughout the then known world.

Even if we were to assume that the greater number did not prove faithful, still it is difficult to believe that they were not at the very least thousands who did. Since the Watchtower magazine began to be published in 1879, more tens of thousands have professed to be "anointed" followers of Christ. (The September 1, 1925 Watchtower page 263 reports that 90,434 partook of the elements in that year).

For the purpose of illustration, if we were to accept a very conservative figure of 10,000 proving faithful to death during the course of the first century, and another ten thousand from 1879 onward, that would leave 124,000 others to be approved during the intervening period. Consider what that would mean. It would mean that during the ensuing 1,779 years before the Watchtower organization comes on the scene, Christ Jesus, who was directing his followers in accord with his words at Matthew 28:20, only saw an average of 70 persons a year - in the whole world - become faithful and approved follower of his!!!

(this figure results from dividing 124,000 by 1,779)

It is thus quite possible from a mathematic and geographical perspective, that most of the "anointed" never met other members of the faithful and discreet slave class. It also, would explain why it is so difficult to identify them in history." END OF QUOTE

1

Debate With JW Elder on Organization

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

further to my previous postings on this debate, i hereby post the elders next comments for your analysis:.

quote:.

"daniel &:21,25,27 refers to the warring against and the harrassing of the "holy ones" who were to receive the kingdom.

stevieb1

Does anyone have any comments to make on his use of logic? He is trying to prove something, but it isn't that the WTS is Jehovah's Organization.

1

Debate With JW Elder on Organization

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

further to my previous postings on this debate, i hereby post the elders next comments for your analysis:.

quote:.

"daniel &:21,25,27 refers to the warring against and the harrassing of the "holy ones" who were to receive the kingdom.

stevieb1

Further to my previous postings on this debate, I hereby post the elders next comments for your analysis:

Quote:

"Daniel &:21,25,27 refers to the warring against and the harrassing of the "holy ones" who were to receive the Kingdom. In 11:32-35 these are described as "the people who are knowing their God", prevailing, acting effectively, having insight, imparting understanding to many, and made to stumble during a period of refinement. In chap.12 (unmistakably applying to the last days) they are ferred to as "your (ie Daniel's) people" (cf Paul's analogy of a spiritual Israel, Gal.6), "holy ones" (vs.7), those who are cleansed and refined, having insight and understanding (vs.10) and both keeping in expectation and "arriving". It may be argued, of course, that nowhere in these passages are they spoken of as an organized association, but it should be observed that the overall picture is that of a people (like Israel) united in suffering, having shared insight, responding to the same refining process (the same is said of the 'great crowd' in Rev.7) and seeming to work together to impart insight to others.

"The collective nature of the community of the latter-day holy ones seems to be emphasized more emphatically by Ezekiel in chaps 38,39. We are justified in claiming this passage for the last days by its use in the Armageddon scenario of Rev.19. The passage deals with the pre-Armageddon attack on the "regathered" Israel by the forces of Gog. The people of God (Israel in some sense) are described as "brought back....collected together out of many peoples" (vs.8), dwelling in security without wall, bars, or doors (vs.11), gathered together out of all nations (vs.12), "my people" (vs.14), "in my land" (vs.16), "inhabitants of the cities of Israel" (39:9). However one might wish to identify the "Israel" of the prophecy, the fact remains that the picture is that of a collective body "gathered together" in a real congregational sense. To suggest otherwise is to rob the imagery of all meaning."
END OF QUOTE

Do you feel in any way that the above comments support the idea that Jehovah is exclusively using the WTS in his dealings with manking today?

7

Debate With Elder - Part 2 (Organization)

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

i really appreciated your input on my previous thread which dealt with a rebuttal to a jw elder who has written a piece "defending" the premise that jehovah is using an organization today to dispense spiritual truth.

here is part two of this item.

the second part of the article begins by implying that the modern day organization is synonymous with the "congregation of the living god" and is "god's household," a "pillar and support of the truth" (1 timothy 3:15).. the following is a direct quote from his article:.

stevieb1

I appreciate your comments. Each time I read the article this elder has provided, the more ludicrous some of the statements appear to be. Part 3 will be posted soon.

Agape

7

Debate With Elder - Part 2 (Organization)

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

i really appreciated your input on my previous thread which dealt with a rebuttal to a jw elder who has written a piece "defending" the premise that jehovah is using an organization today to dispense spiritual truth.

here is part two of this item.

the second part of the article begins by implying that the modern day organization is synonymous with the "congregation of the living god" and is "god's household," a "pillar and support of the truth" (1 timothy 3:15).. the following is a direct quote from his article:.

stevieb1

The last response to Part One of this debate can be found dated Oct 1 @ 9.36. I originally posted Part 1 yesterday.

7

Debate With Elder - Part 2 (Organization)

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

i really appreciated your input on my previous thread which dealt with a rebuttal to a jw elder who has written a piece "defending" the premise that jehovah is using an organization today to dispense spiritual truth.

here is part two of this item.

the second part of the article begins by implying that the modern day organization is synonymous with the "congregation of the living god" and is "god's household," a "pillar and support of the truth" (1 timothy 3:15).. the following is a direct quote from his article:.

stevieb1

I really appreciated your input on my previous thread which dealt with a rebuttal to a JW elder who has written a piece "defending" the premise that Jehovah is using an organization today to dispense spiritual truth. Here is part two of this item. The second part of the article begins by implying that the modern day organization is synonymous with the "congregation of the living God" and is "God's household," a "pillar and support of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

The following is a direct quote from his article:

"That individual faithful Christians would be present in the generation prior to the great tribulation is established by reference to the holy ones who are gathered together from the four winds in Matt. 2$:22,24,31. Paul uses the pronoun 'we' when referring to such ones in 1 Thess. 4:15,17 and 1 Cor. 15:51 (two passages applied to the last days). If we judge by Paul's customary usage, the references must be to the Christian congregation. Nowhere in these passages is there any hint that the congregation is now merely a mystical entity. In fact, when the writer of Hebrews is encouraging his readers not to 'miss the meetings' (Heb. 10:25,26), he adds the comment 'and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near'. If we acknowledge that the 'day' is the 'day of the Lord', we are bound to accept that Christians might still be gathering for their meetings in the last days.

"Revelation 13:7,10,15, further identify the holy ones as those who are persecuted for their refusal to take up the sword and worship the beast. In chapter 18:4 thw words of Isaiah and Jeremiah (Isa.48:20, 52:11, Jer.50:8, 51:6, 45) originally spoken to ancient Israel were transwferred to those now called "my people". The implication seems obvious. Just as the Israelites returned from Babylon, so God's latter day people would, as a group, flee from Babylon the Great. This likening of the congregation of the holy ones to the repatriated Jews is found throughout the apocalyptic writings. Who would doubt for instance, that the prophecy of Rev.11 is attributing the 'two witnesses' the priestly functions of Joshua and the governmental function of Zerubbabel, since the language is straight from the post-exilic book of Zechariah? The passage alluded to (chap.4) focuses on divine appointment and seems to present the two anointed ones as receptacles and transmitters of the holy spirit. Elsewhere in Rev.11, the two witnesses are given authority similar to that of Moses and Elijah. It appears to me, therefore, that irrespective of the actual identity of the two witnesses, the passage clearly asserts the existence of some entity in the last days with divine backing and authority. Additionally, we might add, this instrument of God "torments" opposers earthwide (vs.10) and is temporarily conquered by the beast." END OF DIRECT QUOTE

What would you response be to this material?

Reasons to Believe (Dr. Hugh Ross)

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

is everyone familiar with dr. hugh ross and his organization reasons to believe?

i have learned much from this ministry.. hugh ross is a trained scientist and pastor who specialises in marrying the bible with science (both of which are records of truth).

he has an msc and phd in astronomy and was a post-doctoral fellow with the california institute of technology.

stevieb1

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Is everyone familiar with Dr. Hugh Ross and his organization Reasons To Believe? I have learned much from this ministry.
Hugh Ross is a trained scientist and pastor who specialises in marrying the Bible with Science (both of which are records of truth). He has an MSc and PhD in astronomy and was a post-doctoral fellow with the California Institute of Technology

Reasons to Believe does not have a denominational affiliation but believes in the inerrancy of scripture. It provides research and teaching on the harmony of God's revelation in the Bible and in the facts of nature. They produce a quarterly magazine called "Facts for Faith" and host a weekly radio ministry.

CHECK THEM OUT ON www.reasons.org

Tell me what you think of their resources.