I've doubted Rutherford's sincerity too at times, but let me put this out there: if he didn't believe in the teachings, then why did he make his 1925 prediction, the one that ended up making him look like "an ass"? Sure, it got him some press at the time, but he would have had to be pretty stupid to think it was going to pay off long-term. And indeed, according to what I've read here, he lost around 75% of the Bible Students over that failed prophecy.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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50
What were the calculations used to arrive at the 1874 date of Christ's return?
by Zoos inwe all know the calculations used by the wt to arrive at 1914. fall of babylon in 607 (false year), gentile times, no zero year, ta-da, 1914.. what did they use before that?
i know it wasn't russell who came up with it - he just adopted it.
i'm just curious what they had to explain away when they made the transition.. .
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Teaching Anthony Morris III names of common things.
by LogCon in"...what it is is this spanx, this skin-tight stuff they wear.
now, are you sisters wearing this in the ministry?
i can't say that i've ever seen that.
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Apognophos
I hope he decides to focus on bathingwear next. "And sisters, sisters? These beach suits or whatever they call them, that you wear to the beach? Disgusting. I've asked the brothers. They don't like it. When you wear your suit to the beach, it should be a suit, brothers. And sisters? Why would you not be wearing a skirt, or better yet, a dress? Remember who you represent."
Ha, nice, BGN. You've written this very believably.
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Greek Mythology influence on New Testament
by Magnum ina few days ago, i was in a book store, and i picked up a book providing a brief overview of classical mythology.
as i examined the opening pages, i read about tartaurus (place of punishment) and hades (god of the underworld).. it seems so odd that tartarus and hades would be mentioned in the new testament, and yet they were part of greek mythology which predated the new testament.
why would bible writers have used such terms?
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Apognophos
Okay, glad you're interested in that material, Magnum. I went into reading it with a skeptical mindset about the Documentary Hypothesis, and it took a while for the weight of the evidence to accumulate until I was convinced.
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Greek Mythology influence on New Testament
by Magnum ina few days ago, i was in a book store, and i picked up a book providing a brief overview of classical mythology.
as i examined the opening pages, i read about tartaurus (place of punishment) and hades (god of the underworld).. it seems so odd that tartarus and hades would be mentioned in the new testament, and yet they were part of greek mythology which predated the new testament.
why would bible writers have used such terms?
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Apognophos
I don't personally find the mentions of Tartarus and Hades to be very meaningful or indicative that the Bible is not inspired, as it could simply be assumed that the writers were using those Greek concepts as analogies for teaching the Greek-influenced audience basic theological truths.
But the point-by-point explanations of Genesis' creation accounts, Flood accounts, and Red Sea accounts, which I found on contradictionsinthebible.com a few months after I learned TTATT, were sufficient to convince me that the Bible is properly viewed as a collection of ancient man-made Jewish writings from different time periods and different schools of thought. It might be best to read the Essential Reading links in the sidebar first.
Overview of creation accounts: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/genesis-2-creation-accounts/
The Flood: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/the-flood-narratives/
Crossing the Red Sea: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/how-is-the-red-sea-dried-up-moses-rod-or-yahwehs-wind/
It's quite eye-opening to see the dual Flood and Red Sea accounts that have been merged get separated again. I know this is a lot of material, and quite off-topic from your question; I guess I just feel that it's much more essential for you to know that material than to discuss some minor mention of Tartarus
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Did you AWAKEN from the JWs by yourself?
by cultBgone ini was thinking about how so many posters here on jwn are frustrated and frantic to help their loved ones get away from the brainwashing of jws, and how much advice is given about how to help family members and loved ones.
i considered my own leaving and that it was internal turmoil based on the teachings getting weirder and child abuse issues, to name just a few, and it made me wonder:.
did you self-awaken or were you assisted by the gentle proddings of a friend or family member?
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Apognophos
Though I didn't learn TTATT by myself -- I have JWfacts to thank for showing me the information that really showed it couldn't be the truth -- I did have an epiphany a year before that, which, looking back, must have been when I first "awakened". I had come across a new word. It's always a major event in my life when I see an unfamiliar word because I am a language fanatic. I saw someone describing his religion as "Jesusism"; I just had to look that word up. Sure enough, as one would logically guess, it means "following the teachings of Jesus only, not any additional writings by Paul or other later religious leaders".
Suddenly it struck me: it was entirely possible for me to live an upright life without the religion's imposed morality, by just following Jesus' words, and what's more, this meant that the organization was the modern-day Pharisee class! They had added a bunch of oral laws onto the original, simple teachings. It was all so clear that they were burdening their followers unnecessarily. I immediately felt a huge load lifted from my shoulders.
I didn't yet know any good arguments against Watchtower doctrines, nor did I realize for a while longer that "Jesus' sayings" are difficult to attribute reliably to Jesus, and many of his sayings probably were inserted retroactively by later Christians or came from earlier rabbinical sources. But just looking up the word "Jesusist", and learning of a concept that I didn't have any clue existed before then, was a huge step in seeing a difference between the words of the Society and the word of God.
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Sunday Washington Post: Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
by Balaamsass2 inlocal.
gay christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
despite encountering criticism, the lgbt community is finding greater acceptance, even in religious circles.
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Apognophos
I did allow for the possibility in my post that they are not attracted to each other. It still seems dangerous to me. I wouldn't be roommates with a girl if I was trying to remain celibate unless she was really not my type. People can grow more attracted to each other over time, keep in mind.
Anyway, I just found it odd that two gay women would choose to live together and think this would be good for their celibate lifestyle. Why not pick a random straight woman to live with, if they want to avoid temptation? It takes two to tango....
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Sunday Washington Post: Gay Christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
by Balaamsass2 inlocal.
gay christians choosing celibacy emerge from the shadows.
despite encountering criticism, the lgbt community is finding greater acceptance, even in religious circles.
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Apognophos
I'm trying to figure out how anyone can be a celibate homosexual while also living together with someone of the same sex. Do they just not find each other attractive? Otherwise it sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Jw's attitudes toward the act of baptism
by _Morpheus ini attended (meaning was emotionally blackmailed) a jw baptisum ceremony today.
i was awestruck at the "event" status given this.
to be sure it wasnt the first time i witnessed it but for whatever reason it really stood out to me what a spectical they have turned this into.
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Apognophos
I'm more fascinated by how you spelled "baptism" correctly in the subject line but then it mutated to "baptisum" and then "baptsium"
Anyway, I don't really see anything I could call worship of baptism. I mean, you line up for the pool, everyone watches you get dunked, and then what? You go off, find a towel and change your clothes. People congratulate you if they bump into you later in the day, or at the next meeting at the Hall, and then everything is back to normal. Most of us actually felt it was pretty anti-climactic.
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Couple questions....like if JW's not the right way then what is?
by world innew member here so don't attack :d here is a couple questions i have been contemplating lately.. .
if jw isn't the right religion, then which one is?
or is it basically believe in god, the bible and you'll be fine?.
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Apognophos
Heh, welcome world. Newbies always get a ton of replies, so I'll keep mine short and focus on one thing you said. You mentioned the way that Witnesses cross racial boundaries. Yes, this is commendable, but it doesn't indicate that Witnesses have to be the right religion. How many churches do you know that are actually segregated in this day and age?
And, for that matter, did you know that Witnesses were segregated too when it was the common practice in the U.S. and other places? Imagine how "progressive" it would seem today if the Witnesses back then had simply held to the principles in the Bible. From the early days of Christianity, Jews associated with Gentiles; they were all "brothers in Christ". So why didn't Witnesses challenge segregation like they challenged so many laws that infringed on their practices?
Personally my experience has been that congregations today are well-integrated, and people of all colors feel close to each other, but what causes this? Is it the holy spirit? It's actually easy to explain using in-group psychology. You see, Witnesses are more ostracized (or perhaps we should say more self-ostracized) from the community than are, say, people of color. So when a Witness meets a Witness, it's a bit like feeling an immediate kinship when you meet a fellow member of some other minority that you're a part of -- a fellow vegetarian, or a fellow Linux user.
Humans can only divide their groups into so many sub-groups; the desire to belong to something larger can thus cause them to cast aside divisions that apply in the world at large in order to feel a sense of belonging and solidarity with some group of people. It's no different from any club, whether it's a chess club, an atheist convention, or an association of parents whose children suffer from a certain disease; they all bond over their common interest or difficulty and ignore other differences, in the name of feeling a sense of togetherness and mutual encouragement.
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Why JW marriage is a huge problem for the organization.
by kneehighmiah inthe difficulty of finding a marriage mate is well known for sisters.
but i would say it's hard for brothers also.
i was talking to a jw last night.
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Apognophos
Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, and the reason why all the JWs that are single seem unattractive is that their JW essense is to you, (or whoever) just unattractive! Not about looks, but about whether a whole person 'attracts' another person. It is easy to see the "pretty" in a person who is unavailable. Most of us can observe the pretty face and move on, dismissing them. When a person meets a prospective mate, 'attractive'is about a lot more than looks.
JWs don't like JWs. They don't want to be married to one. They may not even like themselves. They probably think they are unworthy of anyone as good as they want in anycase. If the brothers you know are not seeeing any attractive single sisters, it is because they simply don't want to be married to a JW. Objectively, there are a lot of pretty single JW women. And men. And froggy ones, too. But what sane person wants to marry into that mess?
A pretty,yet pious JW is kind of like a frosted turd. And while we often make wrong decisions with marriage mates, most have SOME instincts for survival. Being a JW destroys the sense of self and destroys our trust and faith in others to have anything good in them, either. It is the guilty folks that suspect others of dishonesty the most. Same principle applies. NOt about actual guilt, but the sense that we are just unworthy and undeserving of anything good. You get told that enough, you believe it.
For the first time since I've joined this forum, I'm quoting the entirety of someone else's post. JWdaughter said something profound here that I don't want overlooked. I've known a ton of pretty, single, spiritual sisters in my time as a Witness -- some incredibly beautiful -- and I never desired to get to know any of them. I didn't know why. I just felt like it would be a really bad idea to get married for some reason. Since marriages are forever in JW Land (unless adultery occurs), it would mean a commitment that I couldn't take back, and something told me that this would be a huge mistake, no matter who I married. I told myself that the reason I resisted the idea of commitment was that, as an imperfect human, I couldn't be sure that I would make a good choice in finding a mate that I would then be stuck with for an infinite amount of time in the new system.
Looking back, things are finally becoming clear for me. I understand now that the one attribute all these girls had in common which made them undesirable was the very thing I thought I admired in them: their spirituality. If they hadn't been sincere about the religion then I would not have respected them, because I hate two-faced people. So yes, I respected these sisters for taking the religion seriously and for dressing modestly and giving good talks, etc.... but they all just seemed eminently unmarriageable. I didn't know why until now. I think one part of it was JWdaughter's suggestion that I just felt unworthy to be with anyone that I would actually want as a marriage mate. I also think it's because, if I married a Witness, I would have been committing to not just her, but the religion, and there was a little voice in my head warning me not to.