Actually, I think you misunderstand the notions of the WT on this subject. They are not indicating that the "attack" will be something like SWAT teams descending on churches from helicopters. They're simply referring to dismantling the organizations of Babylon the Great. Thus, the organizations will be devoured by the wild beast, but individuals will survive till their judgment at Armageddon. One point I'm not clear on is if these people will be judged by Jesus at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, or by the end of it. Keep in mind that God is said to be 'putting this in their hearts', thus if the UN happens to attack all false religions first, this is simply because God directed them to do it, not because they know what religion is "false" or "true". Oddly enough, they'll then attempt to turn on God's true followers (did God give them some confusing directions?) and then Armageddon will come before his people can be destroyed. Sorry, I don't have the time to pull citations for this from the literature, I'm just going from memory.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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Beginning of Great Tribulation: UN (Disgusting Thing) Attacks False Religion but HOW?
by ProfCNJ inhi folks, good morning.
finally, we have studied wt july 15, 2013 study article this morning as a congregation.
while the wt is so certain that the signal of the start of the great tribulationis the attack of the un against false religion, i could not help but to ask the following:.
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My first time at a KH - especially to hear the New Light!!!
by The Song Remains The Same ini am not jw, and never intend to be one either.
however, having read a lot about the july 15 wt, i decided to go to the kh today and check out how the new light was going to be delivered.
i thought i would share my observations;.
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Apognophos
You seem shocked that the JWs would not show any doubt about the teachings in their comments. For sure, at least a few will be doubting internally. But the meeting is not the time to express those doubts unless you want to immediately flag yourself as a potential apostate. You seem to have the WT study confused with a dialogue or open study group, rather than the call-and-answer session that it is.
1. The dual-fulfillment teaching is a longstanding part of Witness belief; almost all prophecies were supposed to have two fulfillments, though this is not dwelt on as often as it was in the old days when they did a lot of complex class-naming (Jonadab class, Jehu class, etc.) in order to explain how the ancient accounts had modern-day applications.
2. The prediction about the UN attacking false religion, and then the Witnesses, is decades old. I'm somewhat surprised they are still holding to it, but there you have it.
3. You're entirely correct that a DFed one is more or less expected to be destroyed at Armageddon (unless they are actively trying to be reinstated at the time of the Big A), and that this is in conflict with the notion of leaving the judgment to Jesus. Formerly the teaching about the sheep-and-goat separation work was that our very ministry was the means by which people were divided into the two groups, based on their reaction to our message. By the '90s, the teaching was that the separation work is yet to come.
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If you don't believe in God where do you get the strength to cope?
by Miss.Fit ini know there are some here that are going through some tough times.
some of you do not believe in god.
some are not sure.. i was told recently by a friend to pray to god for help and he would comfort me.. my first impulse is to pray.
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Apognophos
If you don't believe in God where do you get the strength to cope?
I actually would take exception to the question itself, Miss.Fit. There's no need to "get" strength from anywhere. All living things that are healthy want to continue living; their "strength" is in their continued biochemical reactions that constitute their life processes. Only when an organism is heavily damaged does it want to end its suffering. But as long as you live healthily, you will naturally feel strength within yourself, and want to live; the exception to this is if you are indeed suffering from a chemical imbalance. You might need meds for that temporarily, but a lot of people are able to go off meds once they find out what's harming them mentally or physically. Obviously if you're not getting enough sleep, that's going to sabotage everything in your life. Eating right, obviously... exercising is a must because our bodies are supposed to be active throughout the day. It could be that you're simply not putting your own mental and physical health high enough on your list of priorities. When was your last vacation, your last do-nothing day?
One big thing that separates humans from other animals is that, because we can contemplate the future, we can envision our own deaths, and this can be a heavy thing to deal with, to be aware of our own mortality. There are lots of ways you can deal with this. There are many people who do not believe in an afterlife and yet are unafraid of dying. Personally, I view myself as part of a continuum of life. I'll accomplish what I can with whatever time is allotted for me, and then I'll pass my resources back to the planet to be used again in some other life. We're already made up of many people who died before us. I don't place a lot of emphasis on myself, but then again, my philosophy is not for everyone as it requires solitude and detachedness.
Many secular-minded people simply focus on their loved ones, as some have indicated in this thread. They make themselves about the other person or persons, and this brings them inner contentment (this seems to be more natural for women than men). Some who don't believe in God still believe in some sort of cosmic force like karma or reincarnation which gives them some peace of mind because they can believe in a universal sort of justice. Some people may not believe in anything supernatural, but they set aside time each day to meditate. Meditating can give you the same benefits as praying (since, if God is not listening to our prayers, what is prayer but simply meditation on what we need and what we are trying to do better at?).
But, in my non-professional opinion, you're mainly just feeling temporarily shocked at the change in your beliefs, and possibly you are over-extending yourself on behalf of others or going too hard on yourself physically. Keep in mind -- no matter what you believe, life goes on. Our inner beliefs can't change the direction of a single falling leaf or cause a single ripple in a puddle. If you've made it this far believing there's a God when really there isn't one, then that simply means you made it this far entirely on your own strength and with the support of other people! Thus, there's no reason to be too worried about having "the right beliefs". Life is about enduring, finding a purpose to work at, and hopefully having some fun along the way.
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Wt 2013 oct 15. KNOWING God is not about knowledge, it´s a conviction, LOL!!
by Mr Fool in.
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besides, claiming that you know god, is that a humble attitude?!
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Apognophos
She claims to hear Jesus' voice, which I'm asserting is perceptible evidence (if only to her); therefore, if it's perceptible evidence (whether seen, heard, etc) then it's not going to contribute to supporting one's BELIEF via FAITH (which requires UNSEEN evidence, or second-hand accounts as provided by reading Bible accounts), but via DIRECT EXPERIENCE which provides KNOWLEDGE (eg as provided by Jesus' offering SIGNS/MIRACLES, which are witnessed by using sensory skills, and are processed by use of logic/reasoning).
Jesus repeatedly pointed out how supporting BELIEF via FAITH is far superior to basing it on KNOWLEDGE (and use of logic/reason), since he pointed out how witnessing miracles failed to build one's FAITH, even in his apostles, and the Bible repeatedly states that FAITH is what matters.
Oh, I see. I might agree with you then, except I don't really know the nature of what tec claims to hear. It seems to me that she said she was listening to a sort of intuitive, inner voice rather than actually hearing things. In which case she is referring to the sort of emotion-based faith that Jesus seemed to look for in his followers, rather than evidence-based faith. But I haven't spoken with her that much or read a lot of her posts; you're the one who's been doggedly obsessed with her beliefs for a while now, so I suppose you would know better than I what her standpoint is.
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Wt 2013 oct 15. KNOWING God is not about knowledge, it´s a conviction, LOL!!
by Mr Fool in.
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besides, claiming that you know god, is that a humble attitude?!
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Apognophos
Two quick points, adamah:
1. tec seems to be advocating faith in God based on one's inner voice, whereas the WT would never endorse such an idea because the rank and file don't get to commune with the holy spirit, only the anointed do. The WT asserts that faith can be based on broadly visible evidence, which actually places their claims on more tenuous ground than tec's because the WT's evidence (or lack thereof) can be examined more objectively than tec's personal experiences which are the basis of her faith.
2. I think you misunderstand the WT article's phrase "faith in God". They are saying that we can have faith that God will do this and that after we are confident he exists. "Faith" in this context is not "belief in God's existence", but "belief in the fulfillment of his promises", therefore it is not circular reasoning.
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Okage Takes Issue with: November 1st 2013 Watchtower Magazine
by okage injust a few issues i had from looking at this potential new york-printed toilet paper:.
pg 4: the lie that made god nameless.
this sub-article talks about how god's name is jehovah and quotes isaiah 42:8 "i am jehovah.
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Apognophos
I don't find anything wrong with the Society's statements as quoted there. It's a historical fact that "YHWH" was removed from the Hebrew Scriptures. It's acknowledged by the WT that a Dominican, i.e., Catholic monk first rendered the name as "Jehova". Considering that JWs in other countries say the name differently anyway (Ehoba, Ieova, etc.), I'm not sure how this is a scandal or revelation when the Society states in the Insight book that one particular arbitrary pronunication was picked for English just as was done for all other languages. Perhaps it's shocking to some people who weren't paying attention at the meetings, but...
Obviously the Society was not claiming that Adam and Eve would have pronounced the name "Jehovah". That's not stated there at all. The WT does speculate that God taught Adam his name (Eve says the name after giving birth) and the story of creation. This would be a totally reasonable assumption if this whole Adam and Eve business had actually happened.
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Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec inpeace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
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Apognophos
FWIW, I've never heard anyone get talked out of being a Christian (nor an atheist). Just sayin'.
R u 4 realz? Read the MANY accounts of ex-believers, including Cofty (who comes to mind, since I was reading of his experience recently). Heck, I've read about 5 testimonials in this thread alone, on the first page.
I see no such testimonials on that page. I do see people saying that they came to this or that conclusion based on studying the Bible or science books. Only a couple of them actually came to the same conclusion. My point was that you cannot force someone with logical argument to believe the way you do. We all ultimately believe in whatever it's our nature to believe in. But it's your time to waste as you see fit, of course, on arguments with Christians or anything else.
NOW, if what you REALLY meant to say YOU didn't WANT to HEAR of Christians getting talked out of their religious beliefs, then THAT'S another matter entirely. Cognitive blinders, et tu?
NB: It helps if you know what someone believes when you argue with them. It prevents you from making accusations that make you look foolish. If you'd paid attention to any recent statements of mine like "I'm not a faithful person", you would know that I don't believe in the Bible. I'm basically an agnostic.
You DO realize there's absolutely NOTHING preventing you from getting an undergrad college degree, applying to med school, becoming a medical researcher and conducting those SAME experiments which allowed earlier men to gain the knowledge, except doing it yourself?
I don't even think we're taking part in the same argument anymore, and in fact we probably weren't from the beginning, especially since you like to first label everyone mentally as "friend" or "fool" and then base your arguments on a caricatured version of the person you're talking to. If you had simply been responding to what I was saying instead of what you thought I was really saying, we would probably be in total agreement.
I'll just say this before I go off to do other things with my time: your statement above is fallacious because you can't tell me what I would find if I went to school and examined all the evidence firsthand. Personally, I believe I would come to the same conclusions as the majority of scientists, but then again, who knows? Have you gone through that work yourself? Have you even verified the simplest fact experimentally, such as the shape of the earth? And even if you have, how can you tell me what conclusion I would come to if I examined the evidence? Sounds like someone is dabbling in faith.
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Wt 2013 oct 15. KNOWING God is not about knowledge, it´s a conviction, LOL!!
by Mr Fool in.
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besides, claiming that you know god, is that a humble attitude?!
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Apognophos
Well, isn't that apropos for tec's and adamah's debate! Of course, this has always been the WT standpoint -- that faith is based on real evidence -- though the "evidence" tends to be along the lines of "Aren't these specific aspects of the universe so nice for humans?". I haven't read this article yet, but I sense some very specious reasoning coming up.
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WT Flip-Flops on Jesus Inspection Was it in 1918 or 1919?... Did the WT PASS or FAIL?
by Alfred inthis is utterly ridiculous.... .
the more i research this particular subject, the more flip-flops i uncover.
it seems the fds cant even make up their minds regarding what happened in 1918 (or should i say 1919?).
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Apognophos
Once again, as many others have said, it's a sad state of affairs when the WT first has to explain back to you what you were supposed to already believe before telling you the new belief. No wonder I was never clear on 1918/1919.
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Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec inpeace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
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Apognophos
FWIW, I've never heard anyone get talked out of being a Christian (nor an atheist). Just sayin'.