My thoughts on this are that disfellowshipping is a lot stronger punishment than removing some privileges, as the Shepherd book alludes to. Also, this legal language seems to be referring to a situation where someone involved in a case is trying to obstruct justice. So a brother who is punished for taking his brother to court would not fall under this heading unless the defendant was an elder who then removed the plaintiff's privileges or got him DFed.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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Anyone know of df'ing for taking a br. to Court (esp. if Cdn)?
by berrygerry inmost jw's have been told that taking a fellow jw to court is wrong.. the shepherd book uses wts speak: "if an individual ignores god's word on this matter, it may affect his congregation privileges.
" (italics theirs.).
the following are from an interesting case in canada ( link ):.
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Satan, perfection, new world, and being s***ted on again
by Tenacious inaccording to the bible man was created a little lower in abilities to that of angels.
this means that angels are a tad higher in regards to their perfection.
perhaps they have a word for it in the spirit realm as we mere mortals do not.
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Apognophos
The JW answer to the question about a future rebellion is that Jehovah would simply destroy a second Satan when he started to rebel. The universal sovereignty issue only needs to be settled once.
As for why Satan rebelled if he was perfect, why did Adam and Eve rebel, temptation aside? Why would Jesus be able to provide a ransom with his perfect life unless it was possible that he could decide to sin? These perfect beings had free will and could choose to sin, and some of them did (so the story goes).
On a deeper level, it is difficult to conceive of how free will would work, or how God is allowing free will to be exercised when he promises to flatten anyone who "freely" chooses not to obey him. However, if one believes in the magical concept of free will (and I find most people do, including many atheists), then the answer is simple: a free moral agent can choose to do whatever he wants.
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Why do self-righteous hypocritical people ...
by hoser inwhy is it that people who display self-righteous hypocritical behaviour are so blind as not to see what kind of people they really are?.
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Apognophos
It's just human nature to imagine ourselves as being superior to the masses. We give ourselves a pass on the same things for which we criticize others. The ego seems to be a critical component of our psyche and thus needs to be fed by a biased perspective. One can observe this taking place even on this very forum every day.
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Ongoing frustration with wife
by Flipping El ini've tried taking the slow, patient approach with my wife.
i believe i first posted here about 13 months ago about my wife.. we've always had good communication and could talk endlessly about philosophy, neuroscience, sociology and then when i learned the ttatt, i clammed up a bit about spiritual things.
i'd always been fairly liberal, suggesting other alternative ideas, but then i told my wife about the un/ngo scandal (i ran across the guardian story doing a talk as an ms, lol!
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Apognophos
Flipping El, please read this thread started by Muddy Waters: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/284634/1/Female-Perspective-about-WTS-marital-relationship-control. There's a possibility that your wife is trying to ask you if you're going to leave her since you left the religion.
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How to wake up and reverse the trance???
by J-DUBBED inhow do you wake up someone taken from us by these screwed up people?.
our son was hooked by a jw at the age of 25. within 3 months they were married and we never even new about it.
he is now 29 and has nothing to do with his family(except his sister the odd time, when he needs something) of any freinds.. we are lost and have been for four years.. .
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Apognophos
Unfortunately, the reasons why people become Witnesses are varied, and they go back to deeply-seated aspects of the human mind. We really need a psychology paper to be written on this so I can point people to it....
Suffice to say that the religion is meeting one or more of his needs. It might be anxiety over what the future holds, or fear of death, that drew him to the religion. But I bet it's probably his desire to stay sober that is motivating him. The religion has been known to attract addicts who are looking to clean themselves up and need a regimented environment to do so (sometimes it comes down to being a JW or joining the army...). So the religion can at least do that much good for someone, even as it causes other problems.
On another note, I think one pertinent question is why you would rather have him talking to you and doing drugs than leaving a cleaned up life and not talking to you. Don't you want what's best for him?
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JW's donations going to sexual abuse cases?
by Ginx ini posted in the child abuse section, but it hasn't been active for a few days.. i read somewhere on the internet (don't recall what site it was) that jw's donations are going towards sexual abuse cases.. is this true?.
where can i find solid evidence regarding this matter?.
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Apognophos
Nice, Atlantis.
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"You can't believe anything science says, they're always changing their minds.."
by disposable hero of hypocrisy ini know this is going to come up in a conversation shortly, how would you respond to this?
i've had it said to me before, specifically about health, one week wine/eggs/milk/axle grease is good for you, next week it's not..
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Apognophos
Don't help the JWs make excuses, apostrate. Of course you're right about science and medicine, but the problem is that JWs need to let go of their either-or, black-and-white thinking. JWs are always happy to accept the fruits of science into their lives right up until the scientists say something that goes against their beliefs. It's on the JW to explain why those areas of science are less reliable than the ones that built the civilization which they are a part of.
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I have nothing left in the tank, I need help
by Yondaime ini dont have the willpower to attend meetings anymore.
i'm literally on the sound system list every week.
i'm either reading on sunday or tuesday, praying on tuesday nites, adjusting mics, passing mics, or working the sound system, or doing last minute parts for the service meeting.
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Apognophos
Man, why are you doing so much? It's not necessary to do all those things in order to satisfy the brothers that you're a believing Witness. You need to consider your mental health. As Justnowout says, you should ask the appropriate brother(s) if you can temporarily put some of your responsibilities on hold. Pick the things that are most stressful to you and put those on pause. You may never want to resume them again, but you and they don't have to know that right now. Just ask for a temporary reprieve. Are the most stressful tasks the talks and the reading for the study? Then talk to the school overseer and the Watchtower conductor.
If you have the appropriately contrite expression on your face when you speak to the brother who is in charge of whatever area you need to do less in, then unless he's a jerk and doesn't like you, he won't give you a hard time. Even if he does give you a hard time, just squirm and look pained and refuse to give in to his pressure. You can honestly tell him that it's causing you too much stress right now. Guess what? He can't make you do anything. Some brothers will even just take someone off their list lickety-split if they're asked nicely, without making a big deal out of it.
Frankly, you sound like you have a problem saying "no". Usually this stems from being overly concerned with what others think. It gets easier to say "no" when you get older, but there's no time to start learning like the present. Don't worry about what he'll think of you -- "Will he think I'm spiritually weak? Will he just plain think I'm a wuss? Will he suspect me of not being a genuine JW since I 'should' be able to do these things and go to college at the same time?" -- just shut those thoughts out of your mind. They don't matter. The brother in question is just a nudnik who believes in silly things and, while he may matter to your world as long as you're an active Witness, some time in the next few years he won't matter at all.
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"You can't believe anything science says, they're always changing their minds.."
by disposable hero of hypocrisy ini know this is going to come up in a conversation shortly, how would you respond to this?
i've had it said to me before, specifically about health, one week wine/eggs/milk/axle grease is good for you, next week it's not..
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Apognophos
"If science can't be trusted, then where did we get all this technology from? Would you want to do without modern conveniences and medicine just because scientists might someday change their mind on how some of it works?" Witnesses like to boast about how perfectly the universe works thanks to the laws God set for it, such that they can land a rover on another planet by launching it at just the right angle. Well, science is the process of discovering those laws.
Besides the fallacy that OEJ mentioned, it's also typical "all or nothing" thinking from Witnesses, who won't accept anything that's not perfect. At least, they claim that they're not satisfied with anything imperfect, though they still use the results of man's ingenuity while not showing any gratitude for them. Imperfect solutions are all this world has to offer, but good luck convincing a JW to give up their idealistic fixations and accept that. If they can't live forever in a perfect world that is filled with perfect people and only has perfect weather, then screw it, they're taking their toys and going home.
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Interview with an “Unbelieving Mate (UBM)”: Frazzled
by Frazzled UBM inin honour of jgnat i have completed her template:.
is your wife still an active witness?
no thankfuly - she has only been to the memorail, a convention and the kh once this year and has done none of that for at least 6 months.
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Apognophos
I'm glad to hear that things are currently going well for the both of you w.r.t. the religion not having a tight grip on your wife, Frazzled. As you mentioned, she would probably benefit from counseling, but I would suggest that the anxiety in her lower brain (the emotional core of the mind) cannot be properly appeased until the higher brain (her intellect) gives it permission to relax. In other words, if she still believes "it's the truth" or "it's the closest thing to the truth" then she is still going to be vulnerable to sudden bouts of guilt or fear and maybe a desire to return.
Counselors are not able to dispense TTATT in verbal or pill form. While you found that storming the castle didn't work in the past, it could be that, now that she is not attending meetings and getting her regular reindoctrination, a patient, gentle offer to show her TTATT in dribs and drabs will allow her to escape WT control more completely. You might already be doing this, but I say it for the benefit of anyone else reading as well.