Posts by Gamaliel

84

The US military INTENTIONALLY KILLS innocent people??? Where?? When???

by Stan Conroy in

this question was posed by yeru in another post.

i have no interest in getting involved in that post, but this is an interesting question.

supporters of the us feel that there country alone is on the moral high ground, and incapable of such an act.

Gamaliel

Yeru,

OK, let me rephrase this, when in my generation has this happened?

How far back? Anything post-WWII OK?

Gamaliel

84

The US military INTENTIONALLY KILLS innocent people??? Where?? When???

by Stan Conroy in

this question was posed by yeru in another post.

i have no interest in getting involved in that post, but this is an interesting question.

supporters of the us feel that there country alone is on the moral high ground, and incapable of such an act.

The dropping of the bombs may very well have saved American lives. But it was still terrorism. The dropping of burning jelly in SE Asia was terrorism too. So was carpet bombing in Japan and Europe. But it wouldn't make our current U.S. government's accepted definition of terrorism because it was during wartime.

But the US has admitted to many acts of terrorism over the years that truly meet our own government standard and accepted, defined criteria of what we call terrorism. The problem is that terrorism will rarely be called such openly unless it's done by a group or country we don't like. We have lots of other words for it when we do it ourselves or when a country we support is doing it. But we can no longer deny that, based on our own records that have now been made public, the US both engaged in and supported terrorist activities. Also, we have engaged in terrorism on a much larger scale than that of either Hamas or the Israeli terrorism that we support. I do not say this to diminish the guilt of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaeda, the Israeli government and other terrorists, I only say it because it's not fair to always use the term in such a one-sided manner.

And, btw, (teenyuck) the definition of terrorism is not related to the tastes of McDonald's or Hollywood's customers. It is what it is.

Gamaliel

24

Bad odor expereinces at the Kingdom Hall

by Joker10 in

jw
friends

i personally didn't smell anything funny inside a kh.

lol.

but do anyone of you have had bad experiences like having to hold your breath because the person sitting right next to you really smelled?

Gamaliel

Rather than retype my dead crawfish story, you can find it here:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/48743/689707/post.ashx#689707

Gamaliel

7

Ex-Bethelite Admits to Murder at the JW Missionary Home in Samoa

by Room 215 in

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in perusing the information on randy watter's bethelite guest file, i came across a real shocker: an ex-bethelite turned missionary, mike adams, therein alleges to have murdered a missionary couple in the samoa missionary home where he was also assigned, and to having done 14 years in prison for the crime.

do any of you have any recollection of this?

Gamaliel

Never met this Mike Adams. I knew Mark Stapleton[ius] though, and probably even snow boarded with this Adams guy in one of those open areas near the Brooklyn Bridge. He was right about the watchman that fell down an elevator shaft at Squibb, but I figured he was lying about Samoa, so I never worried about it.

Sounds like he might have done the crime. Why only 14 years? Was there some extenuating motive, if that's possible? Insanity? Do Samoans think missionaries aren't worth that much? (I think some Samoans ate a couple of missionaries back in 1838 or 1839 -- food at the proper time, I guess.)

Anyway, it seemed odd because double homicide usually gets one "50 years to life" here in the States.

Gamaliel

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

Gamaliel

Bradley,

Excellent thread. I am a Christian. I am also an agnostic. I read the Bible the way I would any other fictional story. I find inspiration in the parts that mean something to me, the way I would respond to the an epic story, or the story of Prometheus, or even just a movie like "Braveheart," for example - or "A Bug's Life." I understand your statement that you are especially impugning "fundamentalist" Christianity, and I know you already understand that there can be much good found in Christian teaching. So although I'm not arguing with you, I merely wanted to point out how some of these "negative" perspectives on Christianity can just as easily be seen in a positive light, by others.

I'm going to be a man of few words here. Christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

"Christianity, in its truest, fundamentalist form" is an ambiguous, subjective phrase. It sounds like you meant truest "fundamental" form, which is probably why even non-fundamentalist were moved to make a declaration of faith.

The Christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

The Christian ending to this Jewish Epic needed very little poetic license in painting the "Mosaic Law" as some kind of system of condemnation. However, it does this precisely to make the tragicomic Rabbi free us easily from all the condemnation and unworthiness.

They must call on a force which there is no empirical evidence for whatsoever to solve their problems. The entire fundamental message of Christianity is, "You're helpless without Jesus."

Where is your sense of poetry? The greatest stories always have the hero take a leap of faith. But the readers, the audience, are also the vicarious heroes of any truly great story. We are now the kings, we are now the priests. "The Kingdom of God is within you." Whatever we bind on earth is bound in heaven. Wherever two or three are gathered together, "there I am in your midst." We share victoriously in the greatest power known in the Jewish context. It was meant to be empowering. And it was meant to turn the world upsidedown for those who usually felt the most helpless. "The first would be last, etc."

Furthermore, the Christian feels he/she is the victim of the sin of two people who lived six-thousand years ago. They cannot help sinning themselves. They are powerless against their weaknesses.

Not at all. The only moral Jesus attributed to Adam and Eve was the prototype for a positive enduring husband and wife relationship. The idea of Jesus' Christianity is that we now have a new, simpler motivation which is all the power we need against our weaknesses. Love the ultimate source of all, the Father who cares for sparrows and lilies. And love your neighbor, including Samaritans and Palestinians.

Read Paul and you will see a man who feels worthless without the drug of the psyche which he calls the Ransom.

Partly true. But I don't see any real obsession with the ransom as you do. I see a tragic subplot of the man who wanted to free others as far as possible from bureaucratic, legalistic religion. Paul gave his life to do this in the best way he knew how, and his death, his risks, and sacrifice offered a hope to many, especially in the context of his own understanding of pagan and Jewish religion. Religion was a snare and a racket, and Paul wanted to offer religious freedom instead. But religion, like weeds, began to choke Christianity again. Human nature had turned Jesus into an external god, and expected him to come back on the clouds. The imaginations of the women who couldn't accept Jesus had really died, wouldn't let him go. They even "saw" him in the gardener! So Jesus was externalized, resurrected, expected to come again in the flesh.

But those high hopes failed them. The story ends with the sad realization that the resurrections never came, the expectations that Jesus would immediately come back after the Jerusalem holocaust of 70AD failed. Jesus himself personally never came back. The rapture never came. That part of the story was a failure. In the final verse, John is still begging for his apocalyptic dream to come true, his vision that they would all be redeemed, and that a final vengeance would come upon their enemies. For me, that's an important part of the story. Jesus shouldn't be externalized; instead he should be "spiritually internalized." He is deified only in the sense that "we may be one just as they (the son and the father) are one."

Everywhere in the New Testament you see it: victimology, helplessness, weakness, guilt, shame, defenselessness. All this is said to magically disappear because God or the son of God died -- himself a victim.

Not everywhere. I don't see it in the Sermon on the Mount nor in most of the parables. Most everything that is reasonably attributed to Jesus doesn't include this. We all have crosses to bear in this life, because we truly are victims. For most of us, it's not as bad as it was for some in the Roman world. But a Christian faith acts on the belief that self-sacrifice results in a better world. The Christian ideal is to imagine a God who is a Perfect Father and to love that Ideal -- become perfect as that Heavenly Father is perfect. Give good gifts, do unto others, love your neighbor. That's what I see everywhere in Christian beliefs.

I say no. I say I'm not a victim. I say I have the power in my own life to face the challenges of existence no matter how joyful or how painful it is. I'm my own Messiah. I am a Christ unto myself.

Agreed, but I see this in Jesus' own teaching. It was through no fault of the boy or his parents that he was born blind (John 9). It was through no fate or fault that a faulty tower fell on a bunch of people and killed them, Jesus said (Luke 13:4). In the context of Judaism and rampant superstitions (and Jesus was guilty of these, too) this was still very empowering.

Don't be a victim. Don't look for some imaginary outside help from a crutch which no one has seen. Jesus doesn't save. Save yourself.

And I see this as the ultimate lesson in the Bible story, whether the collectors of the stories, visions, propaganda, essays, songs, and letters that make up the Bible intended it or not.

Gamaliel

7

this is very funny

by Ravyn in

jw
friends

too bad it says it can't be posted on other websites!

i think it could benefit a lot of jw lurkers and doubters on this forum and other places who would not normally go to freeminds to read it there.. oh well here is the link...take a chance !

go read it--it is hilarious!.

Gamaliel

Loved it. Thanks Ravyn.

60

Coming out of the closet/Blowing my cover/My story and I'm sticking to it!

by HadEnuf in

dear friends:.

what a pleasure it has been to browse this website over the past couple of years...first as a lurker and then as a member.

i now intend to "come out of the closet"...blow my cover and tell you my story (and i'm sticking to it!).

Gamaliel

Welcome (((HadEnuf))),

Quite a story. And something like it is being repeated as we speak in so many more congregations. Just another day in "paradise."

Gamaliel

28

JW and Christianity..

by cutenconfuzed422 in

hey, i'm new to this site, but i'm looking for the big differences between christianity and jehovah's witnesses.

i would like any information you have, and references to it if you have references.

thanks a lot.

Gamaliel

One of the best sites for changing doctrines is found at:

http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/

because it uses quotes from their own publications almost exclusively.

(look under "Beliefs" in the menu, then "Oscillating Truths" for ones that have changed back and forth, almost everything they believe has gone through changes at least once, however.)

Technically, the authority the JW leaders claim is based on the idea that Jesus would grant a stewardship to a "faithful and wise servant" who gives food at the proper time to all the members of the household (Matthew 25). Naturally, they apply that idea to themselves. But even without that scripture, they would probably appeal to the idea that they have provided more "truth" than any other religion. That is typically what keeps the average JW believing in the "leadership" even if you could prove that "the faithful and wise servant" (faithful and discreet slave) has nothing to do with them. (In many ways they are more like a wicked slave, beating their fellow servants, anyway.)

Gamaliel

28

JW and Christianity..

by cutenconfuzed422 in

hey, i'm new to this site, but i'm looking for the big differences between christianity and jehovah's witnesses.

i would like any information you have, and references to it if you have references.

thanks a lot.

Gamaliel

Welcome cutenconfuzed422,

Christianity motivates good attitudes, good words, good deeds, and good qualities. (Galatians 5:22)

Jehovah's Witnesses tend in practice to use peer pressure, rules, laws, principles, procedures, organization, reports, bureaucracy, pettiness and gossip to motivate works rather than a truly good spirit. It tends to produce an inner turmoil of sin/guilt/works from which true Christianity should be able to free one. (Rom 7:23)

Some JWs on the outside will seem very Christian, and many are no doubt truly Christians, even in their motivation, but experience tells us that the motivation for "acting Christian" is very shallow for a majority of them.

I think that you'll find some good exJW websites in the links section that will lead you a lot of information that backs this up:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/28/default.ashx

Welcome again,

Gamaliel

46

Preaching Slowdown

by cornish in

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i can remember numerous talks and study articles about how the preaching work would get more and more intense as we near the end.. one so called prophetic illustration that stands out in my mind was when joshua and his men marched around the city each day and then just before the city fell they marched seven times signifying a quickening of the preaching work.. it seems starkingly obvious that the preaching,is in decline amonst jw's,the jw's are seen less and less often in my neighbourhood,it is very rare to see them out street witnesing around the town centres and railway stations,the average jw spends far less time preaching than a decade ago.. it seems like their chief brag is definately on the wain,in favour of other recruitment methods.

Gamaliel

The preaching work is probably a smaller factor than JWs realize. In one sense, I think they get their increases in spite of the preaching work, not because of it. In another sense, the preaching work is very valuable, but not because it directly creates converts, but only because it creates a tangible uniqueness that gets milked for all it's worth. ("We are the only religion preaching the good news," etc.) Of course, it's a lot smarter than trying a world-wide foot washing service.

After the end of this month, the WTS will add it all up again to run the report for the "2003 Service Year" (which is really Sept 1 2002 through Aug 30 2003). This gives them enough time to tally all the numbers internationally in time for the 1/1/04 WT and the 2004 Yearbook. The 2003 Yearbook was really the first one to get the impact of any "religion/fear revival" based on the terrorism in the USA that started 9/11/01.

This year, terrorism fears worldwide have remained higher than usual (pre-9/11/01). And, of course, wars and related fears have driven many to believe that only God can take care of this "system of things." Although I've heard all the talk of lower JW visibility and lower hours in preaching, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2004 report only shows a very slight reduction in the USA. Are they printing month by month publishing stats in the KM like they used to? It would be interesting to know what some major countries have been reporting from month to month this year -- and what the memorial attendance announcements were.

I'm still guessing that without 9/11/01 and subsequent high profile wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and other nations threatened, the JWs would likely have seen a 2% or more drop. I was hoping for that this year, but I'm guessing the media has only helped the JWs in the USA and Europe for the past couple years (from the Matthew 24 perspective).

The USA is still a very fundamentalist religious society, in some ways much more so than Iran and Iraq, and I don't think the JWs should have any trouble finding a few more million people for this niche religion in the USA. The truth is, it has a psychological appeal that works even better as people get depressed about repetitious bad news. It helps people rationalize the world's problems, and gives them a purpose, makes them feel important again in the scheme of things. And ironically, it offers a very simple, "materialistic spirituality."

I like that idea that they have a "tiger by the tail" precisely because they have created a "measurable spirituality" that could backfire if they stopped requiring the reports -- or if the reports themselves began producing their own disappointments. I suspect that a even two or three years of disappointing reports will begin to produce their "inertia."

But something like 1 out of every 100 or better are already JWs in those exact areas where their increases will obviously keep coming from. In some cities it's like 1 out of 50. Kids in these areas have JWs in most of their classes or as school friends, and they will learn more about the JWs as they invite them to parties, etc. If these kids or their parents start to get interested in religion, or get tired of mainstream religions, JWs will be a very viable sounding choice for a lot of them.

I'm sorry if these musings sound disappointing, but if there's a decrease, I think it will based on the availability of anti-JW information on the Internet, pedophile scandals, UN and political scandals, etc.. So the people who will continue to convert (or remain in there), will be those who don't (and won't) look around, those who prefer the pseudo-rational JW life to the truly rational, examined life. The latter are more noble-minded, but there's always more of the former than the latter.

Gamaliel